Swift Boat Liars

Mindcrime · Guru

Swift Boat Liars

jspeer · Guru

Are you talking about Bill Clinton? I didn't know he cared enough to land on an air craft carrier. lol

Mindcrime · Guru

Clinton was just a draft-dodger. But I'm OK with that. since I wouldn't go to war for unclear, self-serving reasons either.

Date: Thu Feb 24 9:46 AM, 2005

Very well stated.

jspeer · Guru

How can you call George Bush a draft dodger? He was in the military. He was just well connected. If you had his connections you would have used them too. We can both go on and on about Clinton and Bush. Let's just say all politicians are dirty. Surprise!

Mindcrime · Guru

In my opinon, they are both draft dodgers. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. If there were a draft instated today and my number came up to go fight for someone else's personal vendetta or oil interests, I'd be across the Rainbow Bridge by sundown. Clinton visited Canada, Bush buried himself in political favor and went AWOL. Either way, they avoided service in time of war.

And that doesn't bother me, but in King George's administration, he himself is sending other people's children to die in yet another unjust war. And that's what bugs me about Bush's mystery military record. It's OK to have a deadly, unavailing conflict, as long as HE won't be affected by it. And whenever he does bring up military service, he makes it sound like he was doing his duty, fighting to defend honor, freedom and the American way. He was sitting on an air base in Texas. How much 'duty' could he have done in 4 years before going AWOL?

"He volunteered to go to Vietnam."
-- Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot, yesterday [2/23/04], on National Public Radio

"No, I didn't."
-- President Bush, Feb. 8, responding to a question on NBC's "Meet the Press" about whether he volunteered to go to Vietnam

Date: Sat Feb 26 12:44 PM, 2005

Wow..I normally don't post on forums like these but this warrants a response.
I love how all the raging dems in all there anger over yet another loss on the national level bash the Swift Boat Vets's. They never mention there own 527's like the much larger moveon.org. Nor do the mention the virtues of Michael Moores fictional documentary Fahrenheit 911.
Hey lefties get over it. The people have spoken. Your ideology is dead. Unless you are disillusioned by the virtues of a Delphi paycheck and antiquated union propaganda you will realize this.
I know it is hard to understand. Losing the Congress, the Senate and now the Presidency (TWICE) is difficult for you. I know you believe we are all ENTITLED to a competitive wage. That you have all of the Intel the government does and your arrogance on all issues doesn’t allow you to see the truth. The Left is all about Entitlements. I know that union shops’ competing in a global economy is a challenge. You know what I find challenging. Paying some union monkey 60k per year with no education to screw in a radiator cap and then listening to them sound pretentious when they cruise their new BMW and send their kids to a non union private school. While some of us get college degrees and struggle to hit the 60k mark. I find it challenging to listen to them think they are worth the money just because we are US citizens. Talk about arrogance.
I am so sick of hearing what all of the left is against. That is why you lose. Focus on what you are for and not what you are against.
It is amusing to hear the left move to the center. Look at your super stars...Your Mrs. Clinton...Watch her move to the right toward the center...Watch her views on Partial Birth Abortion shift...Watch her try to establish a moral foundation...Observe how she will try to be tough on military issues and for personal responsibility…I remember hearing her talk about taxes…listening to her espouse her takes a village mentality…Talking of taking from those with means and providing for those with needs…Do you know where that philosophy came from? The communist manifesto…Socialism is not dead…It didn’t come down with the Berlin wall or Russia’s choice to vote…It is alive and well and in the Democratic party….Fortunately..There are more of us than there are of you and we will continue to move forward towards are goals…A strong military, a society that allows me to take care of myself, a society that’s recognizes that times are changing and the old ideals of the democratic party are dead. Government is huge and needs to be reduced.

As for your desecration of the honor of the Vietnam vets. I am disgusted. How dare you take away from their honor and fail to recognize their courage for what they did. Sometimes we have to recognize that others may know more than we do. Often time’s war is not popular. War is a terrible thing and to all the Vet’s from every war I thank you. You deserve respect. I know a little about Vietnam and there is certainly easier ways for corporations to make money than to start a war. You, Mindcrime, wouldn’t see a problem with the ideology of the Commy Vietnamese because there philosophy is soo close to yours.
I am sorry I ranted on my first post. I believe that all of our veterans are special. They are a part of the most elite force on earth. They fight without question because they believe the good of the whole is greater than their own personal safety. They are not arrogant enough to think they have all of the answers. The follow orders because they believe these orders will defend the ideals that our founding fathers felt were important. They do not deserve to come home and have some schmuck sit at a computer drinking a mochachino and eating a krispy kreme doughnut tell them what they did was for naught.
You owe them your very right to sit here and express your views. Freedom of speech is one of the things those soldiers defend. We of the Right will never forget your contributions. Even if we disagree with the reason for the war we know the value of a soldier that will follow orders and trust that the decision of our elected officials are for the greater good.

Sorry for the rant. I believe I am now a thorn in the sides of all the Lefties out there. I look forward to the challenge. Take care and by the way..No offense to all the real hard working Delphi People out there…I, of course, hear all the stories out there from some of my closets friends.

I'm sick to death of these "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" poking their nose in politics. Yes, they may have fought in VietNam, but they didn't fight for freedom or justice, or anything else worth fighting for, they fought for money. Not their own, but the corporations. VietNam was all about money. While that may hurt the vet's feelings, they should face the TRUTH and realize that they were lied to by the same government they're so intent on supporting. VIETNAM VETS NEVER DEFENDED AMERICAN FREEDOM.
I'm probably going to make a lot of people angry for saying this, but; being a veteran doesn't make you special. I respect the people that fought and sacrificed, BUT, like a country going to war, you should have fought because you felt it was the right thing to do, not because it would give you the right to overrule anyone who disagrees with you later in life. My grandfather fought in WWII in the Pacific theatre, and he didn't endure the danger, the harsh conditions, and the kamikazee attacks so that when he got home, he could get a coupla dollars off his meal at Denny's. He fought because it was the moral thing to do. He never bragged about being a veteran, he didn't use his service to win an argument, he never even brought it up. When he raised his voice, it was because he felt he was right, he didn't fall back on something he did 30 years ago. Anyone who uses their military service, or any other past deed, as a trump card should be slapped. Stick to the relevant facts.
And when you refer to SBL's as Nazi's, it's because they use the same tactics as the Nazi party did, they use the same propagandist techniques as the Nazi's, and they have the same facist ideals as the Nazi's; and if it didn't violate fire codes, they would have been burning books in a town square instead of running commercials against Kerry. Ya know, Kerry WENT to war, even if he didn't do well, at least he went. He was involved in combat. I think a soldier would be more angry with a draft-dodging candidate that never even flew overseas until it was for a photo-op, landing on an aircraft carrier FAR FROM ANY DANGER.
"

Mindcrime · Guru

Firstly, I never drink coffee, much less mochachino.

Secondly, Crispy Creme donuts are horrible.

Thirdly, why do you assume I'm on the Left? Or a Demoract? Or a Liberal? Or any other superficial label you can come up with? Apparently I must be some kind of beatnik college kid with a beard because of my ideas. Ideologies can be shared by all kinds of people. That's why they don't "die." I criticize President Bush not because I'm a leftist, or a Dem, or a Commie, but because he is the most incompetant, clueless, obtuse president in history. He makes bad decisions and favors the good of the few over the good of the many.

The difference between the Swift Boat Liar Heads and MoveOn.org is that the Vets are attacking someone purely because they disagree with Bush, and then creating an unsubstantiated fiction to associate them with anti-military and pro-gay agendas in an attempt to rile Bush supporters.

If you were sick of hearing about what's wrong with the system, wouldn't you fix it? You claim "the people have spoken," but you apparently only want them to speak in favor of Bush. When half this country voted in Dubya, and the other half didn't, they were all speaking. That's what it means to have free speech, the right to disagree.

With the exception of the Revolutionary War and the consecutive World Wars, we never fought to defend our freedom from anybody. VietNam, Korea, Iraq I & II, etc. these conflicts had NOTHING to do with American freedom. They had to do with world-wide economics and power-mongering. Even this bogus 'War On Terror' has nothing to do with our freedom (unless you count how it's being taken away). Can a terrorist see what books I'm reading at the library? Or listen to my phone calls? Or censor the media? Or keep me from hijacking a plane with my 4" pliers? Not likely. Freedom includes risks.

Ask a soldier who has seen combat, who has lost friends, and has gone through absolute hell on the battlefield, where he saw the honor in war. I know many veterans of many different wars. I have spoken with them at length about their experiences. There is no honor in having your hand blown off by your own grenade. There is no honor in having your eye put out by a shard of your best friends' skull. There is no honor in fighting for six hours in the mud to save a village of people, only to have those people turn their hidden weapons on you once you've driven the enemy off. There is no honor in losing your ability to walk and then being denied benefits by the Pentagon because they lost your war record. Honor is just a word. That's all. Real soldiers know that war is not about honor, or dignity, or glory. It's about survival.

I didn't write my first post to denegrate soldiers. Soldiers have a tough, risky profession and deserve respect. Of that there is no doubt. It's an interesting decision to become one. But being a soldier doesn't elevate you above civilians. If a civilian and a veteran are arguing, the vet cannot simply win the argument because of who he is and what he has done.

jspeer · Guru

Wow! Looks like Mindcrime and Scott might have met their match. How do you top that reply. Are you guys ready to swich after that educational post? What's that saying "You can lead a horse to water"? Or is it a Donkey?

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

Creating an unsubstantiated fiction…Interesting….Are we talking about Michael Moore? The lefts entire campaign was based on “against Bush”. It was never for Kerry..Who are you to say that the SBV’s were telling the truth. I don’t believe anyone is capable of making that statement. As for the label of Dem or Leftist (most people don’t admit that anymore) , I think your posts define that for you and I will never again try to portray you as such. You are doing a fine job defining your character and priorities.
Charging that George W. Bush is the most incompetent, clueless, obtuse president in history is a pretty bold statement that is extremely short sighted. He is a man of character that believes he is doing the right thing based on the very concepts this country was founded on. Is he perfect? Absolutely not…Was the Lefts golden Boy Clinton? Be serious…Not only did Clinton desecrate the sanctity of his marriage he got up on national TV and purged himself. He blatantly lied to all of us.. And all of that tabloid fodder is nothing compared to the technology he provided the Chinese through his veto of his own defense subcommittees recommendation that gyroscopic guidance technology not be provided to China by Lamar industries. This technology now allows a potentially hostile country to hit American soil with an ICBM for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union. Unfortunately this type of critical information was buried on the back pages while stories of the blue dress trounced the cover. Sadly most people don’t read enough to notice.

You state “If you were sick of hearing about what's wrong with the system, wouldn't you fix it? You claim "the people have spoken," but you apparently only want them to speak in favor of Bush. When half this country voted in Dubya, and the other half didn't, they were all speaking. That's what it means to have free speech, the right to disagree.”
I say the people have spoken because the majority elected President Bush. I enjoy a good debate. I believe a balanced system and a good squabble bring about good ideas and foster positive change. I just haven’t heard many good ideas coming from the left. I only hear what is wrong with the proposals from the right.
Help me to understand what it is you stand for and not what you are against. What is it you stand for and what specifically would you do to improve the system?
You state the war on terror has nothing to do with freedom. How about the freedom to feel safe in my own country?
Please explain to me how responding to World Trade Center attacks had anything to do with “world-wide economics and power-mongering” ? I am curious..What would you have us do?
Freedom does involve risks. On this we agree. I, however, am willing to give up some of these freedoms for the safety of my children. Have you ever traveled to a third world country? Even the worst parts of our own country are nothing compared some of the places I have been. We often forget how good we have it. I won’t.
You state “Ask a soldier who has seen combat, who has lost friends, and has gone through absolute hell on the battlefield, where he saw the honor in war. I know many veterans of many different wars. I have spoken with them at length about their experiences. There is no honor in having your hand blown off by your own grenade. There is no honor in having your eye put out by a shard of your best friends' skull. There is no honor in fighting for six hours in the mud to save a village of people, only to have those people turn their hidden weapons on you once you've driven the enemy off. There is no honor in losing your ability to walk and then being denied benefits by the Pentagon because they lost your war record. Honor is just a word. That's all. Real soldiers know that war is not about honor, or dignity, or glory. It's about survival.”
Well isn’t that creative and powerful. Honor is just a word. Based on that logic so is everything else. I have spent most of my career consulting the military and I am curious to know the soldiers you have spoken with that feel it is not an honor to be a part of the US Military. That is quite the graphic depiction of injuries. We all know war is not pretty. It is WAR and it is terrible. The system is flawed but it is the best system in the world. What would you propose in its place?
I will be sure to tell all the soldiers I know that you don’t believe they are real soldiers because they don’t consider it an honor to serve in the military.
I am eagerly waiting for your response to my direct questions. I sure hope that you’re not just another guy that’s points out all the negative and has nothing constructive to offer. I look forward to you enlightening me. Please help me to understand why everything I hold dear is incorrect.

Mindcrime · Guru

Creating an unsubstantiated fiction…Interesting….Are we talking about Michael Moore? Michael Moore used actual footage of Bush saying stupid things, doing stupid things, and supporting stupid things, plus he cited numerous official government documents and interviews. It's pretty simple to see that he had evidence of everything he presented. If Bush didn't look good in the movie, he shouldn't have been near a camera...

As for the label of Dem or Leftist (most people don’t admit that anymore) , I think your posts define that for you and I will never again try to portray you as such. You are doing a fine job defining your character and priorities. This is what I meant by many different people sharing the same ideology. I agree with some of the things Rush Limbaugh says, for example. But I also realize that most of what he says is one-sided and slanted to one side. Everyone who thinks gay marriage is OK is not a Democrat, nor is everyone who thinks we should be in Iraq a Republican. We should always try to address the idea itself and not worry so much about the source.

[George W. Bush] is a man of character that believes he is doing the right thing based on the very concepts this country was founded on. Bush's character is that of an evangelical, who has hardened beliefs. When you believe something, by definition, you disbeleive everything else. This is why I prefer idealsts to believers. An idea can change and grow.

Is he perfect? Absolutely not…Was the Lefts golden Boy Clinton? Be serious…Not only did Clinton desecrate the sanctity of his marriage he got up on national TV and purged himself. He blatantly lied to all of us.. Marriage is not sacred. If it were, there wouldn't be a 50% divorce rate, widespread infidelity and prenuptual agreements.

And all of that tabloid fodder is nothing compared to the technology he provided the Chinese through his veto of his own defense subcommittees recommendation that gyroscopic guidance technology not be provided to China by Lamar industries. This technology now allows a potentially hostile country to hit American soil with an ICBM for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union. Did you know that the only reason the USA & the USSR survived the cold war for 40 years was the threat of mutual annihilation. We both knew we could totally obliterate the other. Thus, no one fired a single missle. It's a stupid system, but it worked.

I say the people have spoken because the majority elected President Bush. 52% is a slim majority...I would call it an evenly divided populace

What is it you stand for and what specifically would you do to improve the system? There's a lot we could do, but it wouldn't happen because it all makes too much sense. I'd start by getting rid of all lawyers, simplifying the law, and enforcing the laws we have instead of making new ones. I would track every single dollar that comes out of tax-payers pockets, and make sure it's being put to good use. HMO's would be outlawed. A flat income tax. Marijuana would be legalized. Discontinue combustion engines so that we are FORCED to develop and market cheaper alternatives. Gasoline -driven vehicles would be available only in emergencies. (That would end our dependance on middle eastern interests). And how about a salary cap for EVERY elected official on the country. Say $50,000 a year... just a few ideas to start with.

You state the war on terror has nothing to do with freedom. How about the freedom to feel safe in my own country? Nobody feels safe in this country, and not because of terrorists, but because of the governments 'Terror alerts.' Bush keeps everyone scared by issuing vague, cryptic warnings that usually go something like this: Someone...may attack the U.S....sometime soon, but we're not sure where, or how...Watch Out!

Please explain to me how responding to World Trade Center attacks had anything to do with “world-wide economics and power-mongering” ? I am curious..What would you have us do? The answer is incredibly complex, but it goes like something like this: 19 non-Iraqi hijackers supposedly flew planes into US targets, so we attacked Iraq.......hmm......I know, let's stop sticking our nose into the affairs of the middle east. That's why they hated us to start with.

Freedom does involve risks. On this we agree. I, however, am willing to give up some of these freedoms for the safety of my children. Your children are not in danger. Bush needs you to think you are in danger so you will not question his ludicrous policies. Whenever he's criticized for being careless and inneffectual, he wraps himself in the flag and says 'shame on you for disagreeing with me.' It's been said: "Those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither."

Well isn’t that creative and powerful. Honor is just a word. Based on that logic so is everything else. I have spent most of my career consulting the military and I am curious to know the soldiers you have spoken with that feel it is not an honor to be a part of the US Military. That is quite the graphic depiction of injuries. We all know war is not pretty. It is WAR and it is terrible. The system is flawed but it is the best system in the world. What would you propose in its place? How about if we only use our military to DEFEND ourselves and not to put large holes in other people's countries without provocation. We can't go 10 years without invading some soveriegn nation with a marginally effective airforce and bomb the daylights out of it.

I will be sure to tell all the soldiers I know that you don’t believe they are real soldiers because they don’t consider it an honor to serve in the military. I never said veterans weren't real soldiers. I accused them of being equals.

Please help me to understand why everything I hold dear is incorrect. Opinions are never correct or incorrect. I'm not posting these thoughts to discredit yours, just to offer another point of view. Mine is no more valid than yours or any less important.

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

Do you really believe that Michael Moores work was based on pure fact and not distorted to meet his own political agenda? Even the staunchest of left wingers wouldn't say that.
[George W. Bush] is a man of character that believes he is doing the right thing based on the very concepts this country was founded on. Bush's character is that of an evangelical, who has hardened beliefs. When you believe something, by definition, you disbeleive everything else. This is why I prefer idealsts to believers. An idea can change and grow. So you believe that living based on the biblical teachings is wrong..

What is it you stand for and what specifically would you do to improve the system? There's a lot we could do, but it wouldn't happen because it all makes too much sense. I'd start by getting rid of all lawyers, simplifying the law, and enforcing the laws we have instead of making new ones. I would track every single dollar that comes out of tax-payers pockets, and make sure it's being put to good use. HMO's would be outlawed. A flat income tax. Marijuana would be legalized. Discontinue combustion engines so that we are FORCED to develop and market cheaper alternatives. Gasoline -driven vehicles would be available only in emergencies. (That would end our dependance on middle eastern interests). And how about a salary cap for EVERY elected official on the country. Say $50,000 a year... just a few ideas to start with.

I see some libertarian sneaking in there.. Do you have any ideas that we can actually use..I mean in theory Socialism can create the perfect society. If we are gonna dream up impractical policies lets go big...Get rid of all lawyers...replacing them with??? A flat income tax...has potential but low income people don't pay any tax so that will never go over...Legal Marijuana, now there's an idea...What good can possibly come of that...Works wonders in Amsterdam..They have no problems..I agreee we need alternative fuels and less depency on foreign oil..but to ban them all together is impractical..The China Coms would surely seize upon this temporary crutch to our society to advance their agenda...Salary Cap for elected officials..Great idea..Then we can really attract the best and brightest to a job that pays less than they can make working the line at a GM plant...

You sound like a smart person. I would love to hear some ideas that are based in reality. You come up with some small steps that can be taken to simplify government and keep some of my money in my pocket and I will support you.

I enjoy your comments and I look forward to addressing all of this line by line...Tonight I must sleep..Take care. It has been fun

Mindcrime · Guru

The bible is fine piece of fiction. It tells wonderful stories and is morally driven. But I wouldn't base my life on something so replete with contradictions I think it's a fine starting place for a moral code, however. I would also include the Torah, Koran, ahimsa and a number of other teachings.

In Amsterdam they speak four languages and smoke marijuana. In America, I'm lucky if I can get the McDonald's clerk to speak one. You ask what good would it do? I say what harm would it do? We spend countless billions of dollars every year on enforcement, and useage has only increased. It's not a dangerous substance and would do more good regulated.

Lawyers are a cancer on this society, and do far more harm than good. The complexity of our legal system requires us to have people who do nothing but interpret it for us. How inane is that? We'd be better off symplifying the whole thing and doing away with the blood-sucking middlemen.

When you vote for an official, do you consider him/her a peer? When's the last time we had a president who wasn't a multi-millionaire? And how many multi-millionaires know what those people struggling to feed their families really care about? And the fact that they can vote themselves payraises perpetuates the cycle of avarice and corruption. High wages only attract greedy candidates. I'd trust a regular guy like me a lot farther than a greedy, criminal CEO who hasn't cooked his own dinner in 30 years.

Most of my ideas are completely feasable. But the rich and powerful in this country would lose their superiority over everyone, and that's why it's unrealistic. Why can't these ideas become reality? Just because someone says they can't be done? That's just silly...

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

The bible is fine piece of fiction. It tells wonderful stories and is morally driven. But I wouldn't base my life on something so replete with contradictions I think it's a fine starting place for a moral code, however. I would also include the Torah, Koran, ahimsa and a number of other teachings.
I understand your reference to the bible. I understand your choice to believe in nothing. I recognize the bible is filled with contradictions as are all of the other works referenced above. They were all written by man and therefore are as flawed as we are. I also need to preface my struggle with faith in anything beyond the physical. It is difficult for any man let alone a person of science to grasp these rather lofty ideas. A super being or power is difficult to believe in. I have decided that what I don’t know far outweighs what I do. There is an ancient work that contributed greatly in my decision to believe. Blaise Pascal wrote, sometime around 1662, Pensées. In this text he proposed Pascal’s Wager. I will not attempt to decipher his work but will simply clip a bit for your own review.
Pascal maintains that we are incapable of knowing whether God exists or not, yet we must "wager" one way or the other. Reason cannot settle which way we should incline, but a consideration of the relevant outcomes supposedly can. Here is the first key passage:
"God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up... Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose... But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is... If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
This little work is one of the things that has inspired me to choose faith. I have nothing to gain but happiness and the general comfort that comes with knowing everything is going to work out. I have to say that since the time I started to feel a mustard seed of faith that things in my life have improved. The logical side of me fights all the time and it is a struggle to see fanaticism prevail in many religions. I believe that any religion can be good and the moral guidelines provided by most are very similar. I have read most of the works you have referenced above and many more. I enjoy the writings of the Dali Lama and find him to be a remarkable and inspiring man. I do not force my views on others, nor do I feel that because this is the path I have chosen that it is correct. I do recognize that most people that choose religion are happier, healthier and wealthier (supporting documentation provided upon request).
I will end this thought here. I am trying to keep my response to under 5 minutes.

In Amsterdam they speak four languages and smoke marijuana. In America, I'm lucky if I can get the McDonald's clerk to speak one. You ask what good would it do? I say what harm would it do? We spend countless billions of dollars every year on enforcement, and useage has only increased. It's not a dangerous substance and would do more good regulated.

I think your views on Amsterdam are seriously distorted. Of course maybe things have changed since I was there 12 years ago. When were you there? Perhaps we can compare notes. I remember some serious issues and filth in many areas. Heroine was the drug of choice for a serious number of people. I know that marijuana seems like a harmless drug. I actually believe it is less dangerous in may ways than alcohol. I still have concerns over it’s gateway status and I am afraid that it could lead to other more potent and dangerous things. As for the four languages…How many do you speak? Perhaps you would like my next post in Spanish.Not everyone speaks four languages in Amsterdam and believe me it is not the Eutopia that you make it sound like.High Times is hardly a credible source for material regarding the social dynamics of Amsterdam. They still have problems just like we do?

Lawyers are a cancer on this society, and do far more harm than good. The complexity of our legal system requires us to have people who do nothing but interpret it for us. How inane is that? We'd be better off symplifying the whole thing and doing away with the blood-sucking middlemen.

Simplification of the system is something I support. I am at a loss as to where to begin. There will always be lawyers and there will always be a need for lawyers. The system tries to have a precedent and a solution for every possible scenario.

When you vote for an official, do you consider him/her a peer? When's the last time we had a president who wasn't a multi-millionaire? And how many multi-millionaires know what those people struggling to feed their families really care about? And the fact that they can vote themselves payraises perpetuates the cycle of avarice and corruption. High wages only attract greedy candidates. I'd trust a regular guy like me a lot farther than a greedy, criminal CEO who hasn't cooked his own dinner in 30 years.

I do consider my elected officials my peers. I do not believe that all CEO's are crooked or that they all have people cooking dinner for them. The wages for a government official are not that great compared to their corporate counterparts. Sorry I must finish this thought later…Gotta go…

Date: Sun May 22 10:00 AM, 2005

And yet another. There's more.

Date: Sun May 22 3:58 PM, 2005

Oh Jeezus: All these posts and I forgot to log in.

Sorry about that,

Mindcrime

Date: Sun May 22 6:41 PM, 2005

I'm sick to death of these ....

Mindcrime, riddle us this--

Who hides behind chain maile armor?

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

the swiftboat veterans all 250 of them, were fibbing when JK was speaking the truth ? horse poop , they had nothing to gain - everything to loose - yet they brought the truth to light . JK went on while a USA naval officer to negotiate with the enemies of america while america was at war with them - JK should BE brought to trial and if convicted punished as per the law .

they were not more or less equal than the other americans who voted in the last election , but they were there when we were not , and they were so disgusted by the LIES of a possible future president / commander of the american military that they had to do something . THEY ARE TO BE COMMENDED FOR THEIR SERVICE AND FOR THEIR ACTIONS !

IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT JK HAS NOT YET AUTHORISED THE RELEASE OF HIS MILITARY RECORDS - ever wonder why ? could it be that he is not completly at ease with the info contained therin being released to the voting public ? in that undisclosed record set is the terms of his release from the military after he met with the enemies of our country while we were at war with them ! while he was still an officer in our military ? in any other war he would have been shot

yes - mindcrime - what is your goal here with this diatribe of water under the bridge - you seek by picking and choosing your info from the past to do ? what ? eliminate lawyers ? or undermine the American president and government ? you seek to elevate past traitors to what purpose ?

i will state again , this war is needed for the very survival of America , i dont care if "they hate me or us " if "they " make choices to kill our fellow Americans "they" must be stopped , the goal here is to kill our enemies who have stated that they live only to kill us - before they kill us , that is what you do to win wars , period . we dont not want or need Pannsy politicians to weak or corrupt or stupid to make decisions to support that common goal in office at this time in our history .

do a little research on the wahhabi sect of islam , do a lot actually . they are the juice behind the enemy that we fight in iraq , they are based in saudi arabia , but they dont fight from there. the people we are killing in iraq {at a ration of 30 to 1 } are sponsered by the wahhabis. it is not about corperations or money , it is about a few generations that have been taught their entire life that america and israel and the west are the cause of all their heartache and poverty and until they kill all of those people [us] they can never be happy or get into heaven ; wether or not the wahhabis believe this is not relevent , because the people they have been preaching to DO BELIEVE IT ! this is a fact left out of your liberal equation .

you have stated BC gave us 8 years of peace , which is a lie , you forget that original attempt at 911 and the cole and 2 blown up embassies and the planning and most of the implementation of the actual 911 occured on his watch as he gutted our intelligence and military special ops ; and do not forget that he BC made the choice to NOT take delivery of osama when offered by the government of Sudan ; 2x - we could not have survived another 8 years of "peace" of that form .

The bible has many interesting things to say about the wars and events leading up to the end , many of the events leading to that event are already in the past - it is not nessicary for you to believe or understand what you claim to be fiction , but you may want to ask yourself why you hold such an opinion when all the rest of your opinions clearly have not been well researched.

because of my simple research i do not believe the bible to be a work of fiction , although it does contain errors . that is for another discussion .

what is your goal ? what is your solution ? are you a member of the islamic wahhabi sect ? who's side are you on ?

Scott Leffler · Guru

do not forget that he BC made the choice to NOT take delivery of osama when offered by the government of Sudan ; 2x

MotM,

As the former senator from NY was famously quoted as saying, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

Snopes.com refutes your "Clinton coulda had Osama" claim ... and so does every other reputable news source (Sean Hannity is NOT a reputable news source).

And the "swifties" have been thoroughly discredited from several angles.

they had nothing to gain - everything to lose

Really?

MotM, the swiftboat vets are a 527 political organization. A propaganda firm established for the sole purpose of helping Bush/Cheney win in 2004.

Please understand, I'm glad Kerry didn't win. He would have been terrible. But Bush has been worse than Kerry woulda been. You or I could more effectively lead the country. I, by thinking for myself. And you, by spitting out all the lies told to you again and again by the "left wing media."

Sorry - a bit of a dig there at the end, but MotM, at least make sure your facts line up ... and yours DON'T.

Sleep well, my friend.

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

quote:

Originally posted by: Scott Leffler
" "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Snopes.com refutes your "Clinton coulda had Osama" claim ... and so does every other reputable news source (Sean Hannity is NOT a reputable news source). And the "swifties" have been thoroughly discredited from several angles. they had nothing to gain - everything to lose Really? MotM, the swiftboat vets are a 527 political organization. A propaganda firm established for the sole purpose of helping Bush/Cheney win in 2004. Please understand, I'm glad Kerry didn't win. He would have been terrible. But Bush has been worse than Kerry woulda been. You or I could more effectively lead the country. I, by thinking for myself. And you, by spitting out all the lies told to you again and again by the "left wing media." Sorry - a bit of a dig there at the end, but MotM, at least make sure your facts line up ... and yours DON'T. Sleep well, my friend."

i will sleep like a baby in my water bed , seeing as my facts are straight , on short notice have this . just the facts son , just the facts .

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9721 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9672 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9690 . i would copy and paste the entire article but it is kinda large , the links provide three pages of great info . but no liberal propaganda .

you glaringly totaly ignored the wahhabi problem , wherin my facts are also straight , you of all people should have more info on this . that is probobly the single most important piece of info that need s to be learned by all americans ; yesterday .

you glaring totaly ignored the military records of JK thing ....

tomarrow i will provide better links for the osama san thing - that dont include reference to another traitor , S Berger . included in your link - he and his info have been discredited since "the incedent" . i am sure you know of what i speak Sean Hannity ? did/does not provide my info . i have the book "Deliver Us From Evil" but have not yet read it ,[ but i see 1/3 of the book is references to his sources which does add credibility does it not ?]- as i am reading the plutonium files by Eileen W. after that "men in black" by mark levine , then SH . you should spend some time in Debka.com . drippings from israeli intelligence .... untinged by the american left .

i stand behind the swifties ....have you read the swifty book ? i have . and i support this president . He is going into history as one of the best ever .... i and you are not qualified to fill his shoes .....

no digs returned - my skin is thick .

this is fun - but my main focus remains solving the problems related to the LOOW site , and i see no reference to the sean kelly green washing article , i am disappointed .

-- Edited by mike of the mountain at 02:43, 2005-05-23

-- Edited by mike of the mountain at 02:52, 2005-05-23

Date: Mon May 23 2:50 AM, 2005

http://www.frankenlies.com/clintontape.htm

here is BC speaking ADMITTING that he rejected sudans offer to hand over Osama Bin Ladin .

BTW i am Mike Of The Mountain .

a little dig is due at this point , but withheld .

Mindcrime · Guru

quote:
Originally posted by: mike of the mountain
"i would copy and paste the entire article but it is kinda large , the links provide three pages of great info . but no liberal propaganda . "

The Swift Boaters were designed and run as a propoganda machine. That was their whole purpose. They accomplished nothing but to assist Bush in his slime-slinging campaign. And they proved in the end to be great big liars. Captial 'L', small 'i', small 'a', small 'r', small 's' :

Liars.

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

quote:
Originally posted by: Mindcrime
" The Swift Boaters were designed and run as a propoganda machine. That was their whole purpose. They accomplished nothing but to assist Bush in his slime-slinging campaign. And they proved in the end to be great big liars. Captial 'L', small 'i', small 'a', small 'r', small 's' : Liars.    "

     sigh -

the quote you refer to is bill clinton's voice on tape stateing that he had the opportunity to take custady of osama bin ladin but he turned it down ,    not related at all to the swifties -          the earlier links documented the events leading up to and slightly after the fact .       you should read them before answering to them .

JK stated a few things which were in fact lies and refuted by the text and facts presented in the book - i have never seen evidence to support JK's version .    does it exist ?   didja read the book ? do you have a copy ?

regarding the alleged swifty fabrications .... their stated purpose or mission was to make sure JK did not become president by presenting the facts regarding his service in vietnam , which they did contribute to . the facts as were presented in the book they contributed to were accurate .

you have yet to show how they are fibbing .....