Patriot Act Strikes Again

Scott Leffler · Guru

Patriot Act Strikes Again

Mindcrime · Guru

This is sad. Thank you President Bush for reducing our liberties, I was feeling waaaay too free and independent. It reminds me of another Suess classic, Who Watches the Watcher? Acts like these have nothing to do with national security and everything to do with reminding people that the gov't. can mess with you any time they want, as long as you let them.

Remember, you can't have bulls--t without b, u, s and h...

Date: Wed Jun 8 8:12 AM, 2005

If the government has the manpower to go door to door, inspecting US citizens on matters as TRIVIAL as to whether or not they MAY be attending a political rally MONTHS IN THE FUTURE, why aren't they out looking for someone? ...someone we all know is evil? ...someone who has, oh, I dunno, ALREADY ATTACKED US?

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

the fbi and nsa have the replacement for carnivore ,remember carnivore ? those guys no doubt did something that attracted attention of something or someone . ACLU was not privey to that and it wont be released by a foil request .

maybe they need some vacation time in arizona ...

TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO
>     HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF
>        AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER.
>THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:
>Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona) who created the "tent city jail":
>He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for
>them.
>He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights
>  Cut off all but "G" movies.
>He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city
>projects.
>Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimina
>tion.
>He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order
>that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked! up the cable TV again only
>let in the Disney channel and the weather channel.
>When asked why the weather channel he replied, so they will know how hot it
>s gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.
>He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.
>When the inmates complained, he told them, "This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If
>you don't like it, don't come back."
>He bought Newt Gingrich' lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the
>jails.
>When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he
>replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of the
>inmates were in his jails in the first place.
>More on the Arizona Sheriff:

>With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just
>set a new record), the Associated Press reports: About 2,000 inmates living
>in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have
>been given permission to strip down to their governmen t-issued pink boxer
>shorts.
>On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on t!
>heir bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the
>week before.
>Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on their
>chests and dripped down to their pink socks.
>"It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who has
>lived in the tents for 1 year. "It's inhumane."
>Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago
>started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not
>one bit sympathetic He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: "It's
>120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have
>to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your
>damned mouths!"
>Way to go, Sheriff! Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a
>lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for
>their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their parole, only to
>go out and commit another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers
>money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves.
>If you agree, pass this on. If not, just delete it.
>Sheriff Joe was just reelected Sheriff in Maricopa County, Arizona.

Mindcrime · Guru

I've followed this sheriff's career for a while. Every warden in the country, when you get down to it, is only required to provide inmates with 4 things. Nutritonal food, adequate shelter, durable clothing and medical attention. Sounds like they get everything they need.

Dovey · Senior Member

Total agreement with MOTM and Mindcrime on this one.I really like the idea of the pink underwear.

Paper Tigress · Veteran Member

As impressed as I am that MC & MOTM agreed on something (you go, guys ), I feel it's necessary to point out that the people in that prison camp are convicted felons. They belong there, and deserve the treatment they're getting. They did the crime and are doing the time.

The Patriot Act is crushing the rights of honest, well-meaning citizens of this country who have done nothing wrong. These are people who have committed no crimes, have no criminal past and pose no threat. Conservatives and proponents of the Patriot Act like to say that we are not approaching a police state, but this country becomes more Orwellian by the day. Warrantless searches and random property seizures are just the beginning. What's the strategy, maintaing liberty by sacrificing it? Isn't that like burning the village to save it?

The Patriot Act's definition of a criminal or a potential threat is so vague, that even Bush himself can be suspect and subject to the Act's abuses of power.

jspeer · Guru

Dovey wrote:

Total agreement with MOTM and Mindcrime on this one.I really like the idea of the pink underwear.

I wear pink underwear all the time...what's wrong with that? I have boxers, Tighty whities or would that be pinkies?, even T backs for those intimate nights.LOL! All kidding aside, I raised $750 for a 8 year old boy with cancer at a local bar for Polar bearind in a pink thong. My family owns 2 local Polock bars and my counsin asked me how far I was willing to go to get him to donate....and I said depends on the money yah got. And he said for $750...and I said for $750 I would do a lot....and he said the polar bear event is this weekend, if you write my bar name on your butt cheeks and wear a pink thong the money is yours...And the rest is history.

Paper Tigress · Veteran Member

Hey, I've got nothing against pink underwear, if yer into wearing underwear, that is

Dovey · Senior Member

jspeer wrote:

Dovey wrote: Total agreement with MOTM and Mindcrime on this one.I really like the idea of the pink underwear. I wear pink underwear all the time...what's wrong with that? I have boxers, Tighty whities or would that be pinkies?, even T backs for those intimate nights.LOL! All kidding aside, I raised $750 for a 8 year old boy with cancer at a local bar for Polar bearind in a pink thong. My family owns 2 local Polock bars and my counsin asked me how far I was willing to go to get him to donate....and I said depends on the money yah got. And he said for $750...and I said for $750 I would do a lot....and he said the polar bear event is this weekend, if you write my bar name on your butt cheeks and wear a pink thong the money is yours...And the rest is history.

YOU ARE A HERO! and I mean that!

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

I'm sure the Unions would get upity at the idea of chain gangs doing their job for free.

Date: Fri Jun 10 3:42 PM, 2005

A union, motm,mc,js all dressed in pink underwear ........

Dovey · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

A union, motm,mc,js all dressed in pink underwear ........

sorry that was me.....

jspeer · Guru

Dovey wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A union, motm,mc,js all dressed in pink underwear ........
sorry that was me.....

I'll bring the beers!

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

i drink chocolate milk or grape juice , beer makes you short as does cheese [ didja notice that cheese is given away by the food banks to the less wealthy amoung us , and cheese has all the bad fats and life shortening things adults should not eat , so poor people can croak younger and stay off medicaid / medicare ? nah ] and salt , i dont wear anything pink , ever. i do have a nice blue hat with yellow horns though .my hospital hat , when i visit people in the hospital , i wear it , nearly every time . i would put it up with me in it as my icon if i could figure out how to .

seriously now ; back to topic http://www.townhall.com/columnists/lindachavez/printlc20050608.shtml

Date: Sat Jun 11 7:21 AM, 2005

But, the topic isn't gunatanamo bay detainees, or domestic prisoners, it's the rights of ordinary citizens, who are in your back yard, being abused by the patriot act.

Dovey · Senior Member

jspeer wrote:

Dovey wrote: Anonymous wrote: A union, motm,mc,js all dressed in pink underwear ........ sorry that was me..... I'll bring the beers!

I will bring the camera!And orange juice for motm

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

http://www.fbi.gov/programs/carnivore/carnivore.htm this

is a webpage about carnivore ; which is non functional , http://www.totse.com/en/privacy/privacy/161818.html here is another with a fair amount of info , i believe that carnivore has been replaced by an unknown that is better and digs deeper .

those guys on top of the page may have done somthing to attract attention , this is not a bad thing . if they have nothing to hide , whats the problem ? the investigation will come up empty life goes on .

i spent 4 hours on the taconic pkwy this memorial day after my loyal audi spit off an oil pressure line , no one would release the tow service phone# until after the state police came and made sure my wife and i were not being naughty - then the state police phoned for a tow . that is new- no doubt a result of a new security directive or something . it 's ok , if i was a bad guy , they would have had me and my car with whatever documents and intel i had with me ... yes it was a pain , but i accept a little pain - remember we are at war , freedom is not free .

here is a list of patriot act provisions that are due to timeout on 12-31-2005 ; there really is not anything here that i dont want to remain in place - i dont want to see it sunseted ; this is all minor stuff that wont affect Americans at all , http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:BjvpXsACTgAJ:www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32186.pdf+patriot+act+expire+&hl=en to quote a fomous old commercial " wheres the beef ? "

Scott Leffler · Guru

mike of the mountain wrote:

those guys on top of the page may have done somthing to attract attention , this is not a bad thing . if they have nothing to hide , whats the problem ? the investigation will come up empty life goes on .

i spent 4 hours on the taconic pkwy this memorial day after my loyal audi spit off an oil pressure line , no one would release the tow service phone# until after the state police came and made sure my wife and i were not being naughty - then the state police phoned for a tow . that is new- no doubt a result of a new security directive or something . it 's ok , if i was a bad guy , they would have had me and my car with whatever documents and intel i had with me ... yes it was a pain , but i accept a little pain - remember we are at war , freedom is not free .

Wow. Let's address the first part of the quote. People who agree with the Patriot Act always seem to say, "if you're not doing anything wrong, then why worry?" With that kind of theory, we can strike the fourth and fifth amendments from the Bill of Rights. Why worry if they search and seize if you're not hiding anything? And why worry about remaining silent if you don't have anything to hide? I kind of like the fourth and fifth amendments and will choose them over the Patriot Act.

As for the second point, you mean to tell me that you stalled out on a bridge and before you could get towed, the cops had to check you out? So you had done nothing wrong ... and you were arrested (literally) until you were cleared. I'd have a real problem with that ... and yet, you don't seem to at all.

Finally - if we strike the fourth and fifth amendments and the police have the right to detain you whenever your car breaks down, how free are we really? And if that's the case, what exactly are we fighting for?

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

mike of the mountain wrote:

those guys on top of the page may have done somthing to attract attention , this is not a bad thing . if they have nothing to hide , whats the problem ? the investigation will come up empty life goes on .

i spent 4 hours on the taconic pkwy this memorial day after my loyal audi spit off an oil pressure line , no one would release the tow service phone# until after the state police came and made sure my wife and i were not being naughty - then the state police phoned for a tow . that is new- no doubt a result of a new security directive or something . it 's ok , if i was a bad guy , they would have had me and my car with whatever documents and intel i had with me ... yes it was a pain , but i accept a little pain - remember we are at war , freedom is not free .

Wow. Let's address the first part of the quote. People who agree with the Patriot Act always seem to say, "if you're not doing anything wrong, then why worry?" With that kind of theory, we can strike the fourth and fifth amendments from the Bill of Rights. Why worry if they search and seize if you're not hiding anything? And why worry about remaining silent if you don't have anything to hide? I kind of like the fourth and fifth amendments and will choose them over the Patriot Act.

As for the second point, you mean to tell me that you stalled out on a bridge and before you could get towed, the cops had to check you out? So you had done nothing wrong ... and you were arrested (literally) until you were cleared. I'd have a real problem with that ... and yet, you don't seem to at all. no it was not a bridge it was a parkway , restricted access . it was a pita . but i am still alive and well , i feel good .

Finally - if we strike the fourth and fifth amendments and the police have the right to detain you whenever your car breaks down, how free are we really? And if that's the case, what exactly are we fighting for? -------------------------------------------------------------

the too liberal supreme court has already ruled in a drug case infared evidence obtained without a warrant is cause to search a pot growers home and upheld the conviction .... "unreasonable search and seisure " ? who says what is unreasonable. the supreme court has already done that .... http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Rg6FEBN7l6kJ:www.law.berkeley.edu/journals/btlj/articles/vol6/Steele.pdf+infared+pot+grower+supreme+court&hl=en

the police already have the right to detain for up to 24 hours before charging ..... ????fifth ammendment is not affected ??? self incrimination in a court ????

we are fighting for our lives and the future of our country and ideals and way of life. thats all , the goal is to identify and capture or kill the enemy before the enemy can do Americans harm.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people 10th ammendment .

here is the ammendment you meant to bring up , i am sure .

in my humble opinion the fourth and fifth ammendment are not affected by the patriot act . i support the patriot act and the goals in mind when it was written . now under 10th ammendment guidlines --- there may be a problem ---- it would be hard to guess what the writers of the 10th ammendment had in mind pertaining to this , at the time they wrote the 10th ammendment . that would be a task for people that know about this stuff .
__________________
- Scott Leffler - Host and Moderator

Mindcrime · Guru

Mike of the Mountain wrote: "if they have nothing to hide, whats the problem ?"

Scott Leffler paraphrased "if you're not doing anything wrong, then why worry?"

The great thing about the law is that it's not really absolute. It keeps changing and evolving. The assuarance that you're "not doing anything wrong" would be enough to give me peace of mind, except that what is considered right & wrong keeps changing as well. Armand Assante once said "Guilt & innocence are a matter of timing. The innocent are only such until the eventually become prepetrators." As laws and crimes become more broadened and punishments more harsh (as the Patriot Act requires), there will be no innocent citizens, and we will all be guilty of one crime or another. It all depends on what, or who, the lawmakers want to imposse their will on.

Scott Leffler · Guru

MOTM,

No, I didn't mean the 10th Amendment. It's been dead for decades.

I meant the fourth and fifth.

The Fourth Amendment is trampled by the Patriot Act (the PA). Illegal search and seizure become all too easy and commonplace because of the PA.

Your obscure aerial and infrared SC case doesn't do anything for your point. Because of PA, the feds can now say (to themselves): "MOTM is a bad guy. Um, we think he might be a terrorist, yeah, that's it. Let's tap his phones, bug his house, check his bank and library records, break into his house - search it, but not tell him - and put him under 24 hour survailance." And Mike, even if they never find anything, they don't have to appologize. Or even tell you what they did. That's far more than looking at your rooftop with a satelite. Or even infrared. But it's all fine with you cause we have to fight "terrorism."

And your comment that "if you're not doing anything wrong, then why worry?" is what made me bring up the Fifth Amendment. While the PA doesn't affect the 5th, I was making the point (which was completely lost on you) that if you're using that LOGIC, might as well strike the 5th, too. Follow the stream, you'll get it, I'm sure.

jspeer · Guru

Patriot Act? A team wins two super bowls in a row and people want to give them an act? I hate Boston!

-- Edited by jspeer at 08:40, 2005-06-13

shughes · Senior Member

jspeer wrote:

Patriot Act? A team wins two super bowls in a row and people want to give them an act? I hate Boston!-- Edited by jspeer at 08:40, 2005-06-13

I think I will like it here!

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

MOTM,

No, I didn't mean the 10th Amendment. It's been dead for decades.

I meant the fourth and fifth.

The Fourth Amendment is trampled by the Patriot Act (the PA). Illegal search and seizure become all too easy and commonplace because of the PA.

Your obscure aerial and infrared SC case doesn't do anything for your point. look again at the whole link , the supreme court has already ruled that your thermal signiture and everything else about yourself not contained inside your residence is subject to eavesdropping and observation without a warrant ; anything observed CAN be used to obtain a warrant to enter your residence ; THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PA , Because of PA, the feds can now say (to themselves): "MOTM is a bad guy. Um, we think he might be a terrorist, yeah, that's it. Let's tap his phones, bug his house, check his bank and library records, break into his house - search it, but not tell him - and put him under 24 hour survailance." And Mike, even if they never find anything, they don't have to appologize. Or even tell you what they did. That's far more than looking at your rooftop with a satelite. Or even infrared. But it's all fine with you cause we have to fight "terrorism." no . if they do all that , they will find nothing wrong , it would be a waste of their time and resources . they are not fools , these guys are all educated motivated individuals operating underfunded with a huge responsibility , i really dont think they will be chasing any ghosts . if they tap my phone or bug my house they will soon fall asleep from all the normal family and business things that go on in my life. they will be impressed with my collection of wool socks and pac boots , and bicycles , and ... my blue fluffy hat with big yellow horns , and .....

And your comment that "if you're not doing anything wrong, then why worry?" is what made me bring up the Fifth Amendment. While the PA doesn't affect the 5th, I was making the point (which was completely lost on you) that if you're using that LOGIC, might as well strike the 5th, too. Follow the stream, you'll get it, I'm sure.

my point seems to be lost on yourself , i did not miss your point , i just think you are way off base . i disagree with your point of veiw .

and are you not worried that the replacement for carnivore will pick up on this thread and begin checking into your comeings and goings .... big brother may be listening ... which combinations of key words have you used ..... ?

carnivore also predates the patriot act - the replacement is so hush hush we have no idea of capability - but we can assume it works more better-er . with or without the patriot act , all will be watched . you can not change it .

10th ammendment is dead ? i sure missed the funeral ....

__________________