Fish Kill

Date: Sun Jun 12 10:08 PM, 2005

Fish Kill

Scott Leffler · Guru

Scott Leffler's school of understanding journalism. Always make sure you read the last paragraph (or last few) of any story. Read the first few for the main point that the writer wants you to get. And the last few for thoughts that don't fit in with their happily packaged product. The last paragraph of this news story is rather telling:

"DEC officials say they would have needed to test for contaminants almost immediately after the problem started and now they can't do anything further but document the incident."

Date: Mon Jun 13 6:16 AM, 2005

Good to know the DEC "closed" the dike after the fish have left the proverbial wier?

Can't test. Too late and besides, "we don't have any baseline data with what the water contains anyway..." "Oh well, thank goodness they were only fish," "Boy, people really would have hollored if they had been dolphins or whales or something," a NYSDEC official said.

Date: Mon Jun 13 6:19 AM, 2005

Why can they not test the fish?

Why did the people not call the police when they saw the trucks there?

Why did they wait till it was to late?

Why can the water not be tested?

Paper Tigress · Veteran Member

My friend in the DEC says these fish are dying of natural conditions. With the weather being hot and humid for the past week, plus the dry month we just had, it affects the oxygen levels in the water. Fish breathe oxygen, so when there's not enough, they suffocate. Testing the fish would yield nothing.

shughes · Senior Member

No offence paper tigress, but get new friends. There is no way they can make such a broad assumption without proof. Test the fish.

Mindcrime · Guru

Well, the same thing happened on Grand Island, so if it was chemical dumping, as it's being ASSUMED here, why are there no cases between here & there? Stronger fish?

dontlookhere · Veteran Member

I have heard recently that dilution was the solution to pollution. That could explain your question, or it may get out your way in time.

From 1962 to 1979 the NYSDEC investigate several fish kills in tributary 1, Jeddo Creek
and Johnsons creek. Officials traced the source back to a pesticide plant. Several years
later that plant admitted that lagoon walls had collapsed causing the fish kills. Want to
learn about birds now?

Date: Mon Jun 13 6:34 PM, 2005

A three headed fish!

dontlookhere · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

A three headed fish!

And red fish blue fish!

Date: Wed Jun 15 11:49 AM, 2005

The most common cause of summer fish kill is oxygen depletion. Depletion can result from oxygen removal by excessive quantities of plants, animals or decaying organic mater.
This can be caused by overstocking, overfeeding, over fertilization, pollution from barns, feedlots, improper septic drainage, or chemical treatment of aquatic weeds during the critical months June through September.
Another common cause of summer fish kills occurs when a dense growth of submerged aquatic plants or algae in a pond dies suddenly from natural causes. The decay process from the dead plants may use up the oxygen in the water. This type of summer fish kill almost always happens about sunrise, when the dissolved oxygen is at its low point for the day.
Another condition leading to natural fish kill, and related to the plant die-off, is high water temperatures. During July, and especially in August, water temperatures in ponds may reach 85°-95°F. Water can hold much less oxygen when its temperature is above 80°F.
When overcast skies persist for several days, while temperaturesare high and winds are calm, a fish kill may occur. Plants cannot produce sufficient oxygen at reduced light levels and calm weather reduces the exposure of water to oxygen in the air. Therefore, the dissolved oxygen may disappear entirely.

Anonymous DEC Employee

shughes · Senior Member

So Anonymous DEC Employee, nice name by the way. If I understand correctly this "natural" fish kill is very common. But your explination caused me to have more questions. Take this statement:
'This can be caused by overstocking, overfeeding, over fertilization, pollution from barns, feedlots, improper septic drainage, or chemical treatment of aquatic weeds during the critical months June through September."

It seems to imply that outside factors such as polution could be a cause. And then there is this one:
"Another condition leading to natural fish kill, and related to the plant die-off, is high water temperatures. During July, and especially in August, water temperatures in ponds may reach 85°-95°F. Water can hold much less oxygen when its temperature is above 80°"

Are you impling that the water temperature is above 80, maybe even as high as 95? Wow my pool never gets that warm!

Let's go back to the first explanation, the heavy rain caused it. Did fish die yesterday or today after all that rain? I understand why you wish to remain Anonymous!

-- Edited by shughes at 13:08, 2005-06-15

Date: Wed Jun 15 12:28 PM, 2005

shughes wrote:
It seems to imply that outside factors such as polution could be a cause.

Are you impling that the water temperature is above 80, maybe even as high as 95? Wow my pool never gets that warm!

Let's go back to the first explanation, the heavy rain caused it. Did fish die yesterday or today after all that rain?

Pollution could be a cause, yes, but there are many possible factors that could be a contributing cause or the only one.

Your pool is a man-made water source, probably filtered & continually replenished, very likely insulated by concrete and is completely clear. A natural body of water, by comparison, is going to be warmer due to impurities, exposure, and currents. Also, some fish are more sensitive to temperature than others. And may be affected by a 65 or 70 degree water temp.

Today and yesterday's rainfall was sudden, but at best sporadic and not significant enough to cause a kill by itself. The recent fish kill was most likely caused by a combination of overpopulation & high temperatures.

Anon. DEC

shughes · Senior Member

Pollution could be a cause, yes, but there are many possible factors that could be a contributing cause or the only one.

Your pool is a man-made water source, probably filtered & continually replenished, very likely insulated by concrete and is completely clear. A natural body of water, by comparison, is going to be warmer due to impurities, exposure, and currents. Also, some fish are more sensitive to temperature than others. And may be affected by a 65 or 70 degree water temp.

Today and yesterday's rainfall was sudden, but at best sporadic and not significant enough to cause a kill by itself. The recent fish kill was most likely caused by a combination of overpopulation & high temperatures.

No concrete, no heater and only 72. Yes some fish are more sensitive that others, but these were fish native to the area, temps are never consistant here. I do find it curious that in the span of 50 minutes you have lowered the water temp factor by 25 degrees.

Where are the tests on the water and fish, and what were they tested for?

What was the water temp at the time of first response?

What was the oxygen level in the water at time of first response?

What is the temp of the water today? What is the oxygen level today?

I think these are fair questions.

shughes · Senior Member

I forgot something Anonymous DEC Employee. Could you please answer my question with concrete words instead of: most likely, may, very likely? Those soft words sound like government spin to me.

Date: Wed Jun 15 2:46 PM, 2005

shughes wrote:

I forgot something Anonymous DEC Employee. Could you please answer my question with concrete words instead of: most likely, may, very likely? Those soft words sound like government spin to me.

I am NOT the DEC person, Shughes...

When you listen to the forecast and they can do no better than giving you a 50% chance of rain tomorrow - or that it MAY storm in the evening 2 days hence, do you see government spin or conspiracy? There is a natural chaos and impossible complexity in weather, nature, and the endless diverse ways that all living things respond to the environment that often can't be explained away with concrete absolutes.

I can only assume that you have not spent much time in the outdoors, boating or fishing. This happened in no less than 3 places across New York on the same day. It WAS consistent with all the factors (season, temp, time, and type of locationâ€¦) that have been understood to create this sort of thing many times over.

This DEC person answered you in a very professional manner... even to the point of not forcing on you any absolutes, so as to exhibit an admirable open mind about contributing factors (something that you apparently did not appreciate.) Like most of these people, they are likely quite attached to nature - and not a sinister government shadow in an episode of the X-Files. There are lots of legitimate problems with our environment that need addressing - but to immediately assume that every natural phenomenon that individuals haven't taken the effort to look up is actually some spurious evil is just wasted effort.

You are on the Internet. It is a vast library at your fingertips. Go to Google.com and discover through many reliable sources something about the world.

-- NotDEC

P.S. If you think all the dead carp are a "native" species you should do a search on the sad history concerning its introduction.

shughes · Senior Member

Thank you NotDEC, your thoughs are noted. As with other nameless posters, they don't hold the same weight. I am asking for test results, and as a taxpayer I an intitled to as much from state officials. I did not ask the DEC to post anonymously they chose to do that.

If you have ever dealt with one of these agencies you would know that they expect proof to back up a complaint. Proof from the person making the complaint. Odd considering they work for the public don't you think? This public employee wants me to accept speculation as an answer, it's not going to happen. Show me the test results thats what we pay them for.

What I'm asking for is accountability.

Date: Wed Jun 15 4:15 PM, 2005

The non-stop whining on this board about discounting opinions because they aren't being typed by some equally anonymous avatar is incomprehensible. "Shughes" isn't exactly parading out in the open either now, is it? This is like a child putting his fingers in his ears and screaming so that he doesnâ€™t have to hear something unpleasant.

My words could be read no differently with a name attached. You are free to accept it or argue against it. Just stop this "avatar-less-people-don't-matter" nonsense. When you are talking about ideas, faces shouldn't matter... and in this cosmetically-enhanced world, wouldn't that be an improvement - to consider an idea or thought rather than judging looks or an identity?

You want the state to fund a study to prove what is already known? Fund it yourself, because I don't want them wasting my money on the senseless non-discovery of a well known event that has been happening forever.

NotDEC

Date: Wed Jun 15 5:18 PM, 2005

DEC pins dead fish in Ellicott Creek on weather
Stacey Shepard
Tuesday, June 14, 2005

Low oxygen levels caused by recent weather patterns are believed to have killed hundreds of fish that floated to the surface of Ellicott Creek in the Town of Tonawanda and Woods Creek in Grand Island over the weekend.

â€œBasically what we have here is a fish kill caused by a natural phenomenon,â€ said Meaghan Boice-Green, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Environmental. â€œThe condition was just perfect for this to happen.â€

A long period of drought and heat had already brought the oxygen levels in the water down, she said. The situation worsened after Thursdayâ€™s storm, which washed material into the creek.

â€œThat provides nutrient for microorganisms. They become active and suck more oxygen out of the water,â€ she said.

This causes oxygen levels in the water to dip below the threshold for fish to survive, she said. The DEC confirmed that several hundred fish in both creeks died.

Because this is spawning season, the fish were likely reluctant to move to a different part of the stream that contained more oxygen, Boice-Green said.
-----
DEC tests to detect a chemical spill or sewer discharge came up negative.

--NotDEC

Date: Wed Jun 15 7:01 PM, 2005

It would appear that this is not normal in this area

"The State Police called back and said the DEC was there and (the dead fish are) natural, normal," Olivencia said. "Something to do with that thunderstorm. I'm hoping so."

But during his 18 years with the county parks, he said, he has never seen anything like this.

Worried by dead fish, official orders inquiry
By ANTHONY CARDINALE
News Staff Reporter
6/13/2005

Augustine "Chito" Olivencia is hoping that the slew of dead fish in Ellicott Creek Park was the victim of last week's violent thunderstorm.

But he isn't taking any chances, and today he expects someone from the state Department of Environmental Conservation to visit the park and examine the dead fish along the banks of Ellicott Creek.

"All kinds of fish are dead, up and down the canal," the county park superintendent said Sunday. "We got calls from neighbors on Saturday. The smell has got pretty bad."

Olivencia said he left telephone messages with State Police and DEC officials.

"The State Police called back and said the DEC was there and (the dead fish are) natural, normal," Olivencia said. "Something to do with that thunderstorm. I'm hoping so."

But during his 18 years with the county parks, he said, he has never seen anything like this.

"All day I've been answering questions from residents and talking to people who fish and canoe in the canal," Olivencia said. "They're concerned because they've never seen anything like this."

Nor has Olivencia seen many dead fish at other county parks that have water streams - Isle View, Emery, Chestnut Ridge, Akron, Como Lake Park.

The rains Sunday morning washed many of the dead fish downstream at Ellicott Creek Park, he said. But he had to chase off several youths who wanted to go for a swim.

"If all these dead fish are normal, it will be great news," Olivencia said. "I just want to hear it from the professionals."

Date: Wed Jun 15 7:07 PM, 2005

Have tests been taken?

Jun 12, 2005 - Is it a natural process, or something more insidious? Is it something man-made?

People who live along Ellicott Creek want to know why there are so many dead fish in the water.

Folks who live along Ellicott Creek have had the usual beauty of their back yards disrupted by an unusual number of dead fish.

“We counted 75 just within our dock area,” said Beverly Kraus of Tonawanda.

Kraus says the problem started Saturday. She said the first sign was that the water looked different.

“That's the first thing we noticed,” said Kraus. “Why was the creek black? It should be green this time of year, something's in there.

“I never seen anything like this and if you take a look, my gosh the big fish small fish everything's just dead.”

Erie County Superintendent of Parks Chito Olivencia got a first hand look and he says in his 18 years on the job this is indeed unusual.

He's already reported the fish kill to local and state environmental authorities. He says they're assuring him that it’s a natural process, but he's still baffled by the magnitude and he's not taking any chances:

“I just want to make sure that it is and there's nothing toxic or anything that's happening because we do get a lot of action, people like to go canoeing here,” said Olivencia.

Natural processes can lead to fish kills, like algae in the water, but man-made problems like pesticide run off or illegal dumping can also kill off aquatic life.

“The fish are always jumping up around here,” said Kraus. “My grandson fishes off the dock. We catch sunnies, perch, bass. Never seen it like this.”

Parks Superintendent Olivencia says he expects to hear back from environmental officials sometime this week.

No mention of tests.

shughes · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

The non-stop whining on this board about discounting opinions because they aren't being typed by some equally anonymous avatar is incomprehensible. "Shughes" isn't exactly parading out in the open either now, is it? This is like a child putting his fingers in his ears and screaming so that he doesnâ€™t have to hear something unpleasant. My words could be read no differently with a name attached. You are free to accept it or argue against it. Just stop this "avatar-less-people-don't-matter" nonsense. When you are talking about ideas, faces shouldn't matter... and in this cosmetically-enhanced world, wouldn't that be an improvement - to consider an idea or thought rather than judging looks or an identity? You want the state to fund a study to prove what is already known? Fund it yourself, because I don't want them wasting my money on the senseless non-discovery of a well known event that has been happening forever. NotDEC

Well not DEC, you seem a bit defensive. The news has reported that the DEC would not test because several hours had passed before they arrived. I have yet to see anything in print that contradicts those statements. Summer fish kills are rare in inland cheeks and streams, they are also rare in June. I don't know what happened, but want an explanation that is based on facts. If there are test results that back up this claim then I will apologize to Annonymus DEC Employee. But as of right now I have seen none. If an oxygen level was not taken when the arrived on the scene, they have nothing. Right now they have taken a theory and made it fact. That just doesn't fly with me. I think it would be safe to say I'm not the one having the tantrum here. What I want is for the State to do what we pay them for.

Date: Wed Jun 15 7:33 PM, 2005

Story was in the Tonawanda News on the 14th that they DID do tests.

The quotes from your story are from the 13th. How time flies when your worrying over nothing.

Honestly... It happens in this area quite often. This also happened on the same day across the state, in the canal by Rome... AND Grand Island! It just happened a little worse this time because the conditions were perfect. It may have been the worse occurrence in 18 years that this person recollected, but that doesn't change the fact that this does happen often this time of year under these kinds of conditions.

Besides... these concerned quotes are from a public parks official. Could you expect him to say anything other than what he said? He needs to sound concerned and careful... it is part of the job of being a public official

---NotDEC

shughes · Senior Member

http://www.tonawanda-news.com/story.asp?id=2905

This is the story link you quoted for the 14th. So lets recap on the 13th they had taken no tests and on the 14th they have test results that showed no sewage or chemicals. When did the fish die? Like I have said several times, they by thier own account did not test when they were first called. This is a moving stream, tests taken several days later are a huge waste of your money.

This article also states that this type of fish kill in a moving stream is very rare. I stand by my statements, they don't know what happened. Now if they had said that they don't know what caused this, but the water is safe now, I wouldn't have posted here.

Date: Wed Jun 15 8:04 PM, 2005

You know... having worked in, enjoyed and fought for nature for half my life - I have really tried to allay your fears. Showing you an unquestionable trend that happened across the state at the exact same time - during conditions that were ideal and in a spot that was a perfect stewing pot for this type of event to happen doesn't seem to matter.

If all these separate facts and events are just coincidence to you... and if the tests the next day in a nearly stagnant body of water, with fish and the plants that were still present, could not turn up anything... I am really sorry to have tried to ease your concerns. There are apparently no tests or corroborating evidence that will give you peace.

-- NotDEC