Property really is theft

Paper Tigress · Veteran Member

Property really is theft

Date: Thu Jun 23 3:47 PM, 2005

Well, there ya go. And the mayor of that city is happy.

Sure, it isn't his family homestead being bulldozed for a kwiki-mart.

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

The city needs to build a hotel. A hotel will solve all the city problems.

Just like a casino would solve all of Buffalo's.

Mindcrime · Guru

Nitrogen_Widget wrote:

The city needs to build a hotel. A hotel will solve all the city problems. Just like a casino would solve all of Buffalo's.

Ah, the irony. 200 years ago the government was stealing land left & right from the Indians. Now the government can do it more easily to it's own people. I just think its funny that after years of lying, persecution, genocide and discrimination, the white man is losing his rent check to the indians' casino...

We definately need to fight this. The federal government already abuses eiminent domain to the utmost. Did you know that if there's a puddle of standing water in your back yard, by law, the governemnt can declare your property a 'wetland' and and seize ownership from you in the name of saving endangered species?

Date: Sun Jun 26 4:57 AM, 2005

I'm not sure of that cities whole economic situation, but their mayor seems to be painting a bleak picture. But of course he would.

Every one I talked to about this had the same question.

Who would want to vacation there?

The thing that really gets me is that a big corporation wants these peoples river property & it seems the only way to do it is to bribe the mayor of that city with potential tax money.

I'll be curious to see if this guy gets re-elected.

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not sure of that cities whole economic situation, but their mayor seems to be painting a bleak picture. But of course he would. Every one I talked to about this had the same question. Who would want to vacation there? The thing that really gets me is that a big corporation wants these peoples river property & it seems the only way to do it is to bribe the mayor of that city with potential tax money. I'll be curious to see if this guy gets re-elected.

it was a war , our ancesters won the indian's ancesters lost , we reap the benefits , thats how war works.

the supreme court decision is different , it is not war , it is a problem that must be dealt with now . nobody saw that comeing , laws must be passed to stop such judicial activisim - that decision was not what the writers of the constitution intended , they fought a war to stop england from doing tha kind of thing and they won .

Mindcrime · Guru

mike of the mountain wrote:
it was a war , our ancesters won the indian's ancesters lost , we reap the benefits , thats how war works.

How was what we did to the Indians a war? We didn't declare war on Indians. We just ignored their treaties, rounded them up and dumped them on the most worthless land we could find. That's theft, pure & simple.

And by reinterpreting 'public use' to mean 'private use,' the supreme court becomes guilty of the same transgressions that England was. We had no say in how our government was run then, because we weren't represented. Well, until we start electing judges, why should we feel any differently about this? Maybe we could declare our independence from the supreme court...

Date: Mon Jun 27 1:47 PM, 2005

I'm surprised there isn't more uproar over this entire event

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

Mindcrime wrote:

mike of the mountain wrote: it was a war , our ancesters won the indian's ancesters lost , we reap the benefits , thats how war works. How was what we did to the Indians a war? We didn't declare war on Indians.no , we just used the army to kick their butts , there were no treaties until after the ass whuppin . We just ignored their treaties, rounded them up and dumped them on the most worthless land we could find.yep , thats how war works , to the victors go the spoils . That's theft, pure & simple.no it was war , the indians should feel warm and fuzzy about our ancesters because of the fact that some indians survive , 200 years ago wars were different than today , many loosing parties were exterminated ..... if the indians had been victorious how many gringos do you think would be around today .... about 0 , maybe less . And by reinterpreting 'public use' to mean 'private use,' the supreme court becomes guilty of the same transgressions that England was.no , this is now , our country our judges our government, they all work for us , the people . time for some pink slips . We had no say in how our government was run then, because we weren't represented. Well, until we start electing judges,we do elect the people that appoint the judges . and we do elect those that interfere with our wishes .... why should we feel any differently about this? Maybe we could declare our independence from the supreme court... or better still , maybe we can build a fire under the butts of the misguided ones in the senate who are blocking judicial appointees that would not stand for this kind of BS . when Cheif Justice Rehnquist leaves [SOON] , we must ensure his replacement will not tolerate this kind of judicial activisim .

so it begins , in my neck of the woods , a local town threatens to seize the land from a local elctric company if they dont reduce the selling price from $3 million to $765 thousand .this developed over the weekend.

Red Hook makes final land offer
Legal action threatened if no deal
By Rasheed Oluwa
Poughkeepsie Journal

June 27, 2005

RED HOOK — A recent offer made by the town may turn out to be one Central Hudson Gas & Electric Corp. can't refuse.

During a special town board meeting Wednesday, Supervisor Marirose Blum Bump announced the town submitted a final offer of $765,000 for four parcels totaling about 60 acres Central Hudson is selling in the town. If the utility refuses the offer, the town could attempt to seize the land through legal means.

The $765,000 represents a significant decrease from the town's earlier offer to purchase 280 acres stretching east from Route 9G to Williams Road, near the Milan town line. The town offered about $1.9 million for the property, which was listed for about $3 million. Central Hudson rejected that offer, Bump said.

An opportunity missed

"I believe we could've reached a win-win situation," Bump said. "Central Hudson could have achieved their goals, the town could have achieved their goals and the adjoining landowners could have achieved their goals."

In a letter dated June 22 that was sent to Central Hudson officials, Bump wrote: "It is the town's intent, that if a negotiated settlement cannot be reached prior to submission of the referendum to the town's people, to include the necessary language in the referendum to seek approval to carry out our intent to obtain these parcels by all legal means available."

One option the town would look into is eminent domain, Bump said. Eminent domain is the process in which a government attempts to take private property for the public good.

Town officials have expressed interest in the property for a number of reasons. The land cuts through a few farms in the town. The wrong type of development could have an adverse effect on those farms, Bump said.

Also, the property sits along a stretch included in the town's trail plan. Bump said the town tried to arrange for trail easements with individual property owners but Central Hudson declined.

Bump also said the property would help fill a critical need for recreational space in the town.

Denise Van Buren, a spokeswoman for Central Hudson, said the utility had negotiated with the town in good faith. She said the utility had a fiduciary responsibility to obtain the highest value for the parcels. She said if any exceptions were made for Red Hook, exceptions would have to be made for all interested parties.

"I think we have clearly established our market threshold and that they needed to raise their offer to continue negotiations in any meaningful way," Van Buren said.

Rasheed Oluwa can be reached at roluwa@poughkeepsiejournal.com

Mindcrime · Guru

mike of the mountain wrote:
no , we just used the army to kick their butts , there were no treaties until after the ass whuppin...Umm, check your history, the treaties were in place long before the government rattled it's sabre in the face of the indians. When that didn't work the government resorted to armed conflict & genocide. And by the way, those "butts that we kicked" weren't threating us one bit. We attacked them outright. (Much like the terrorists) It was a systematic slaughter. How does that equate to a war????

it was war , the indians should feel warm and fuzzy about our ancesters because of the fact that some indians survived Remember that the next time a terorrist attack doesn't kill quite everyone in the building, be sure to ask the few survivors about their warmth and fuzziness.

no , this is now , our country, our judges, our government, they all work for us , the people . time for some pink slips . Nice to see you're believing the government propaganda...Intelligent people know their agendas come before the peoples'

we do elect the people that appoint the judges . and we do elect those that interfere with our wishes...I never elected any of the supreme court judges, or the postmaster general, or the head of Homeland Security, or any of the other presidential cabinet members, or anyone in the FCC, or even the dog catcher. There are many appointed positions of great power that we have no say in whatsoever. Still think 'the people' are in charge?

or better still , maybe we can build a fire under the butts of the misguided ones in the senate who are blocking judicial appointees that would not stand for this kind of BS . Yes, they won't stand for BS, or anything else, they'll just mimic their party's wishes and that'll be the end of justice in America too. If by "building a fire" you mean another revolution, I'm all for it. Otherwise, you'll just be ignored. Lemme know when those senators start paying attention to your big ol' fire...

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

mike of the mountain wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

no , we just used the army to kick their butts , there were no treaties until after the ass whuppin...Umm, check your history, the treaties were in place long before the government rattled it's sabre in the face of the indians. When that didn't work the government resorted to armed conflict & genocide. And by the way, those "butts that we kicked" weren't threating us one bit. not true but I will let it slide as it matters not to the outcome of this “debate “ We attacked them outright we ? no not we , it was 200 years ago , our ancestors , not we. Yes our ancestors did attack them outright like the invaders that they were . . (Much like the terrorists) nothing at all like terrorists . It was a systematic slaughter. How does that equate to a war???? You must be kidding , that is what war is . kill them before they can kill you . simple . if you don’t learn that , you can not win wars .

it was war , the indians should feel warm and fuzzy about our ancesters because of the fact that some indians survived Remember that the next time a terorrist attack doesn't kill quite everyone in the building, be sure to ask the few survivors about their warmth and fuzziness. Our ancestors were invaders , conquerors , imperialists , not terrorists . it was war in a place and fashion chosen by our ancestors who used superior force and imposed their will on the residents of the land at the time . not the same scenario as today’s wars .

they attacked us , without superior force , like a heard of angry mice against a sleeping wildebeest they inflicted a few bites, now the wildebeest mixes the blood of the mice to make pink mud . as it must be . bring on the mice .

no , this is now , our country, our judges, our government, they all work for us , the people . time for some pink slips . Nice to see you're believing the government propaganda...Intelligent people know their agendas come before the peoples' maybe , but still the ability to vote out the politicians that don’t perform as expected is in place .

we do elect the people that appoint the judges . and we do elect those that interfere with our wishes...I never elected any of the supreme court judges, or the postmaster general, or the head of Homeland Security, or any of the other presidential cabinet members, or anyone in the FCC, or even the dog catcher. There are many appointed positions of great power that we have no say in whatsoever. Still think 'the people' are in charge? If you voted , you participated in the process , if you are not pleased with the results , you have many options . YES the people ultimately are in charge .

or better still , maybe we can build a fire under the butts of the misguided ones in the senate who are blocking judicial appointees that would not stand for this kind of BS . Yes, they won't stand for BS, or anything else, they'll just mimic their party's wishes and that'll be the end of justice in America too. If by "building a fire" you mean another revolution, I'm all for it. Who would you direct a revolution against ? I support improvements by legal means ….. Otherwise, you'll just be ignored. Lemme know when those senators start paying attention to your big ol' fire... it takes more than one voter to build a large enough fire to attract anyone’s attention or singe a large enough portion of misguided butt to have much effect , a group of voters with a common goal can accomplish much . look at the NRA and MOVEON .

__________________

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes... If you choose any truth and follow it blindly, it becomes a falsehood, and you, a fanatic ok ? but remember , you can not polish a turd !

Mindcrime · Guru

mike of the mountain wrote:
Yes our ancestors did attack them outright like the invaders that they were...You must be kidding , that is what war is....kill them before they can kill you....Our ancestors were invaders , conquerors , imperialists , not terrorists...it was war in a place and fashion chosen by our ancestors who used superior force and imposed their will on the residents of the land at the time . not the same scenario as today’s
MOTM, your perception of reality is highly skewed. A war is not just people with superior firepower and technology bullying the obviously weaker into crushing submission. That's called an atrocity. It's a brutal, abhorrent and there's no honor in it. Suppose I walked into a kindergarten class and started punching 5-year-olds in the face until they were all bloodied & unconscious. Would you think as highly of me as you do your government? Because that's what we did to the Indians. Oh, excuse me, our ancestors did that, so it's OK. Well, suppose my (then 18-year-old) great-great-grandfather had kicked the living crap daily out of your great-grandmother when she was six. How much would you like me when I laughed in your face and said, "so what, who cares, that's all in the past."
OK, OK, don't cry. Now let's assume that what's done is done and we're only focusing on the 21st century. Think of a place which, compared to the US, has: a pathetic, disorganized military, a marginally effective air force, few resources, questionable leadership, oh, and hasn't attacked us or given us reason to. Now imagine that we not only attacked them without cause, but crushed their defenses, toppled their leaders, killed many of their civilian population needlessly, changed their whole way of life so it was a distorted mirror image of our own, and now we spend most of our time taking potshots at what survivors remain.

I see little difference between Iraq and, say, the Six Nations. I also see little difference between the US, and that child-beating bully. We are supposed to be the civilized ones here, not the 'savages.' I think you've seen too many John Wayne movies where the enemy is singularly evil and we're obviously the heroes. Like GWB, you seem to have problem seeing those grey areas. Oh, and that bully, he'll be OK, 'cause if anyone tries to punish him, he can just cry "But I'm a vet!"

...And then he'll steal your property through eminent domain...

shughes · Senior Member

This is really creepy; I must need a vacation! I agree with MC on this one. Defending ourselves really doesn't apply to this argument. At least I can't see it in these examples. Our war on terror started in Afganistan and when we couldn't catch the big bad guy we moved on to a new venue. A very specific group of terrorists attacked us and we had to make a stand to the world. Or was it an old score to settle and someone just needed a reason? To imply that fighting the indians to take what was theirs was just is really out there. Our founding fathers fled to a safer more democrtatic world. But to gain that world they did exactly what the Country they were running from was doing.

Date: Wed Jun 29 7:44 AM, 2005

This country was founded on the double standard. It was founded by a bunch of slave owners who wanted to be free. So they killed a lot of white English people, so they could continue owning their black african people, while killing off the red indian people, stole the remaining land from the brown mexican people, giving them a place to take off and drop bombs on the yellow japanese people. This country's motto oughta be "You give us a color, we'll wipe it out!"

George

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

this is getting to be a multi topic thread , violating the kiss principle .

as the french would say Doomonyou if you think i will allow your grandfather to attack my grandmother with out repercussions .

2nd , the germans melted in the firebombing raids in ww2 were a little white before they were crispied by our firebombing , our military is an equal oppourtunity destroyer , the slave thing , racial thing is not what this country is about , yes some of our ancestors bought and exploited slaves , white and off white , the african slaves were originally purchased from other africans who sold their fellows for whatever reasons but it was not a racial thing . it was a power thing . now the arabs of african nations continue to sell africans as slaves .... or they just kill them or displace them ? do you see the stronger african nations or the united nations or anyone rushing to the rescue ? nope , why not ? off topic again ....

3rd , our ancestors forcibly wrested control of this land from the people that had it at the time , whatever means needed were used , to me that means our ancestors invaded and conquered the land. no way around it , they waged a war on the scattered tribes , and won . survivors were allowed to live at the whims of the conquerors . that was how wars were fought back then . it does not make us bad people , we would not even be born for a hundered years or so .

3rd again the 2nd 3rd which might otherwise be known as the 4th , they attacked us , repeat , they , the bad guys , attacked us , the good guys - we are now doing our best to help them all die for their country , their ideals or what ever else they choose to die for . they started the war , now the war is going to be fought , either there or here , there is a choice of where , the choice of when has been taken from us by them . dont forget they attacked us , they have stated over and over that their goal is to kill all of us . the left wing weinies , with their lifestyles would be the first to be executed under an islamic society s style of law enforcement . as shown below . http://photos1.blogger.com/img/19/957/1024/11072004.jpg and another with words http://nerepublican.blogspot.com/2004/11/battle-for-fallujah.html

and dont forget about iran .... and syria and ..... . this all kinda lines up with the end of days scenarios in the scriptures .

Mindcrime · Guru

mike of the mountain wrote:
Doomonyou if you think i will allow your grandfather to attack my grandmother with out repercussions . I don't care about your wussy grandmother (See how that works? Ya can't talk to me about it, I wasn't even born yet.)

2nd , the germans melted in the firebombing raids in ww2 were a little white before they were crispied by our firebombing , our military is an equal oppourtunity destroyer , Kill 'em all mentality, How can you take pride in such things? You're as bad as bin Laden and the other terrorists when you say things like that.

the slave thing....yes some of our ancestors bought and exploited slaves...Like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams...the african slaves were originally purchased from other africans who sold their fellows for whatever reasons but it was not a racial thing . That's like saying it's OK to buy clothes made by 6-year-olds in Indonesian sweatshops. As long as we're not directly helping, it's OK. Here's a hint: RASCISM & OWNING OTHER PEOPLE IS WRONG. Don't we knock Syria for harboring terrorists? They support 'evil' people, so they're evil by association. Isn't that Bush's latest justification? (after the whole WMD & 9/11 thing fell through?)

3rd , our ancestors forcibly wrested control of this land from the people that had it at the time , whatever means needed were used , to me that means our ancestors invaded and conquered the land. To me, that means we're a bunch of bigotted tyrants, who said everyone had rights (Except for women and Indians & blacks and people who didn't own land. We were here for decades, living mostly peaceably with the indians, trading, etc. Then out of the blue we started wittling away their land and their culture. It's not like we landed on the shores of Massachusetts like vikings and started wiping them out. No, we waited until they were our friends. Then we gut-kicked them. Nice...

it does not make us bad people , So Stalin was a good person who just made poor choices? You have to judge people by their actions. And both what we did and what we're doing is inexcusable, regardless of the justifications you assign to it. It's wrong.

dont forget they attacked us, *sigh* one last time, for the cheap seats:

THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN IRAQ AND 9/11. NONE. ZERO. NADA. ZIP. ZILCH. SQUAT.

Get it?

Date: Thu Jun 30 7:01 AM, 2005

mike of the mountain wrote:

our military is an equal oppourtunity destroyer

I've got a plan. All the people who think like you should be sent to a deserted island. You'll have no supplies except food water and live ammunition. When that runs out you can beat the snot out of each other, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and whoever's left standing at the end you put him on a pedestal, put a medal around his neck, and then shoot him in the frigging head. Then we'll have no more terrorists and no more war mongers.

Scott Leffler · Guru

Ouch. People get testy these days, don't they?

Date: Thu Jun 30 8:48 AM, 2005

Peace, By Renata K. girl,14 years, Kazakistan

Notice her age,maybe the children should run the earth.......the nit wit

shughes · Senior Member

Teach them well and let them lead the way...

Good plan nit wit. The only problem with that is who are the children learning from?

Date: Thu Jun 30 9:30 AM, 2005

shughes wrote:

Teach them well and let them lead the way... Good plan nit wit. The only problem with that is who are the children learning from?

Hopefully right now they are not listening to us grown-ups...and forming their own thoughts of peace " nit wit"

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

Mindcrime wrote:
wrong. dont forget they attacked us, *sigh*

  one last time, for the cheap seats: THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN IRAQ AND 9/11. NONE. ZERO. NADA. ZIP. ZILCH. SQUAT. Get it?

no again . you have made a mistake .    so i apply K.I.S.S. small sentences, simple concepts - keep it simple stupid . kiss .

Zarqawi  is one, possibly the top al quaeda comander in iraq , he answers to Osama Bin Ladin , Osama Bin Ladin was the guy that was in charge of the 9-11 operation - link here -      as you see , the dots have been connected .

also as a side dish , i have shown that there are non iraqi bad guys in iraq and that the iraqi leaders are aware of them and are allowing them to operate for the time being .          there now , wasnt that easy .

the use of very big letters does not show proof that your statements are correct .



Sunnis will take on Zarqawi when 'ready'
BAGHDAD, June 29 (UPI) -- Iraq's Sunnis will take on top terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi once they accept the Shiite-run government in that country, a senior U.S. official said.

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The unidentified official told the Washington Times the Sunnis also would rid the country of foreign saboteurs after their wishes are met.

The official's comments were based on numerous meetings with what he called "influential fence sitters," the newspaper said.

The official said the fence sitters had told him they are only tolerating foreign terrorists because they are a "pressure tool" to force the Shiites and the United States to consider Sunni political demands for more representation in the Baghdad government.

"The Iraqis will kill every foreigner who comes into their neighborhood when they're ready," said the official. "They don't want foreigners in Iraq."

About Zarqawi, one Sunni was quoted as telling the official: "We'll catch him when we're ready."

The U.S. official said: "The Sunnis are broken up into many fragmented groups. Many don't want us to leave. Iraqi intelligence is telling us this every day."

Copyright 2005 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved

shughes · Senior Member

"also as a side dish , i have shown that there are non iraqi bad guys in iraq and that the iraqi leaders are aware of them and are allowing them to operate for the time being . there now , wasnt that easy"

You forgot that we were doing the same thing before 9-11. So we develope the patriot act and go attack 2 other countries. There problem solved as far as the government is concerned. We take away freedom in the name of national security. Go to war in two countries to give them the same freedom we no longer have. Oh yeah that makes perfect sense!

Date: Fri Jul 1 7:00 AM, 2005

Seems to me I remember someone important saying conclusively that there was absolutely no connection between Iraq & 9/11..hmmm...oh yeah! it was The 9/11 Commission!!!!

Your "link" is very weak, mountain man. And to use your own logic against you, calling mindcrime wrong doesn't make it so. Did you know the Bush family had stronger ties to bin Laden than your "linK" did? They've been in business with the Laden family for years. They drilled the first wells in Iraq. Just admit you're clutching at straws trying to defend a pointless war.

Date: Sat Jul 2 11:10 AM, 2005

Some theft is more acceptable than others. Bush stole a presidential election, nothing happened. Halliburton stole billions in overseas contracts, nothing happened. HealthSouth CEO Scrushy escaped with $2.7 billion. Ex-Enron Chairman Kenny Lay is on his way to squirming out of his million dollar lies. It seems the bigger the theft, the less punishment you recieve. I know if you or I steal so much as a candy bar, we get fined and probably jail time. Stealing land is the next logical step for people who theive billions of dollars a day. Legalized theft is even better, to avoid all those pesky federal prosecutors.

And don't forget:

Phantom