He has a valid point, but he could have worded it sooooo much better. It would have been more appropriate to point out that it shouldn't take world-wide terrorist acts to get world-wide support in fighting/finding them.

Now before someone says I'm happy with the attacks, let me explain. Before Sept. 11, this sort of thing happened all the time. Truck bombs, buildings destroyed, people massacred, etc.  It still goes on, but because it happened to us personally, finally, we actually pay attention to it now. 9/11 didn't change the world. All it did was allow us to see the world more clearly. This country is infamous for not caring unless we're actively involved. We hear about a disease dozens of times on the news, but there's no outcry for medical research until a famous person contracts it. No one around here cared about the nationally-known Sprawl-Mart crisis, until they tried to move into Lockport. In the 40's, when the Axis were marching all over the world, we were content to build our standard of living rather than help out Europe, Africa and Aisa. It took Pearl Harbor to get us into the ring.

So in a way, the terrorists are helping to defeat themselves. Eventually, they'll bomb enough countries, and wakem enough of them up, that there will be a REAL war waged on terror.

-- Edited by Mindcrime at 10:58, 2005-07-10

i kinda sorta agree with the MindCrime this time .

but there is a real war on the bad guys taking place already .

with the real SL i dont agree that the attacks on us and our allies are "our fault" because of things we may have done or not done with regard to foreign policy . it is the fault of those who commit the attacks , doom on them .

and the reason we did not shift color codes was because we had no inteligence to support a change ,                                    it is not inexpensive to change color codes , without reason.      

the NSA and the replacement to Carnivore are watching ....

I think we now have a very ugly problem rearing its head in the aftermath of the bombings.

Upset and angry people are looking for someone to blame and hit back at. That's a natural human reaction, but I say fight that feeling because more violence and hatred isn't the answer. Because of all the speculation about who planted these bombs, the Muslims within our community are once more being attacked and harassed.

I want to stand up and be counted in saying I find these attacks on totally innocent Muslims abhorrent and indefensible. Whoever planted these bombs wanted to divide us and scare us into fighting amongst ourselves. They wanted to turn us on each other and I, for one, say don't let them win. If you hear people making comments, stirring up hatred, have courage and tell the person talking that you think there has been enough violence and that adding to it can only make things worse. Speak out for what you think is right. Apathy allows wrongs to go unchallenged and hatred to build. I don't want anyone in our community to feel harassed, bullied or in fear of their lives just because of their skin colour, religious beliefs, or any other reason.

This is a well know passage. I'm sure some of you will have heard it before. It was written about the second world war. I think it holds resonance for today, just change the religions about a bit......

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Paper Tigress wrote:

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I think we now have a very ugly problem rearing its head in the aftermath of the bombings. Upset and angry people are looking for someone to blame and hit back at. That's a natural human reaction, but I say fight that feeling because more violence and hatred isn't the answer. Because of all the speculation about who planted these bombs, the Muslims within our community are once more being attacked and harassed. I want to stand up and be counted in saying I find these attacks on totally innocent Muslims abhorrent and indefensible. Whoever planted these bombs wanted to divide us and scare us into fighting amongst ourselves. They wanted to turn us on each other and I, for one, say don't let them win. If you hear people making comments, stirring up hatred, have courage and tell the person talking that you think there has been enough violence and that adding to it can only make things worse. Speak out for what you think is right. Apathy allows wrongs to go unchallenged and hatred to build. I don't want anyone in our community to feel harassed, bullied or in fear of their lives just because of their skin colour, religious beliefs, or any other reason.

this hold s no water - the people that you concern yourself with have not done what is needed to root out and identify the enemy that lives among them . these same people have no concern for your welfare as they speak of the injustice to be felt by them selves - i see no injustice perpatrated against them , none .

how about the train and bus riders splattered about in england and new york and spain and iraq and ....    how about that injustice .

the islamic community worries about retaliation and yet they do not condemn those amoung their ranks that commit the very atrocity that is not retaliated for .  

 

 This is a well known passage. I'm sure some of you will have heard it before. It was written about the second world war. I think it holds resonance for today, just change the religions about a bit...... First They Came for the Jews First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. Pastor Martin Niemöller

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the bad guys have come for others not much different than yourself , and the local muslims and islamics   stood up for them ?   no they did not .  they whine, nothing more .

we should not retaliate for the inaction of the islamics in country , but no special treatment either .    and those that are identified as the enemy must be treated as the enemy in a very aggresive manner .           

 

I say kill em all and sort em out later! Chances are they hate us anyway! What percent of muslims like us? Like they would tell us the truth when asked. Why would Muslims like us when dumbacrats are always talking negative and making fictional movies that portray us as such bad people. Thank the Pessimistic Dems and there poster boy Mike Moore-On justifying terrorist attack on the USA. In a way I hope the Dems win the next election just so everyone can see how back asswards they are during times of war...I'm sure they will just blame Bush when they F things up.

mike of the mountain wrote:

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i see no injustice perpatrated against them , none . the islamic community worries about retaliation and yet they do not condemn those amoung their ranks that commit the very atrocity that is not retaliated for .  

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The extremists are not "among their ranks" mountain boy, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT, many Muslims are being persecuted because they are being associated with terrorists and extremists that they have nothing to do with. If you were a right-wing, Christian, white guy, who considers himself a patriot, could I harrass you because you're "just like" Timothy McVeigh?

And FYI, many Muslim leaders have spoken out, condemning the actions of terrorists. Try reading the news instead of your money sometime... Why are you so hateful? Chemical imbalance? Not enough love as a child? What?

"I hereby identify Mike as an enemy of peace. Let's all attack him till he cries and blames Clinton for something... "

It would appear that the point was lost on anonymous as well. Attacking is only going to fuel the fire.

we have missed you Dovey..

Yeah, something like that.

Paper Tigress wrote:

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mike of the mountain wrote: this hold s no water - the people that you concern yourself with have not done what is needed to root out and identify the enemy that lives among them . Neither have we...See bin Laden lately? these same people have no concern for your welfare as they speak of the injustice to be felt by themselves When's the last time you personally spoke with a Muslim about their ordeals? i see no injustice perpatrated against them , none . they whine, nothing more . Turning a blind eye and seeing only what you want to is easy. Try looking around without the Bush-colored glasses for once. Generally, people's interpretation of religion that allows them to commit crimes isn't the interpretation of the majority of other people following the religion.  as will the atrocities committed by the 'Jewish' administration against the Palestinians in Israel.the israelis are on the defensive here , they have the ability to exterminate the palistinians , yet they use restraint . This is no different, but with Islam used as the poor deluded excuse.bs , they attacked us , they continue to attack us . There's a good chance, assuming that this was committed by Muslim fanatics, that one of their aims was to cause communities to segregate,explain how you have come to have this information please . to cause hatred towards Muslims in the country, so they can then exploit that. America's revenge attack on Iraq & Afghanistan has made more young muslims want to become terrorists not stopped. If i'd grown up as a Palestinian no doubt I'd want to become a suicide bomber ? ?  ?  this of course demonstrates your own "peace loving nature" please if you can explain how you could possibly arrive at such a contradiction in your own text ?  . In Bosnia, Serbs and Muslims had lived side by side for years without problems, this is bs , they were ruled by the iron fist of a communist dictatorship , until the dictator died ,  peace was enforced at the bayonet of an AK 47 , or under the tread of a t72 tank with support as needed from the USSR . you may not change the facts to support your silliness , during WW2 the serbs were very nasty to the others memories of the past lingered ..... not in separate communities but in the same towns, villages etc. Part of the ethnic cleansing process was to cause disruption and turn the two against each other, as it made killing off the Muslims that much easier.un true  also the muslims fuel by ex mujahdeen from afghanastan and chechnia infiltrated muslim communities and began the festivaties .  It's been happening throughout history.yes since about 600 ad when the islamic religion began .

 Mountain Man, your rhetoric is resentful, hateful and myopic.myopic ? i can see fine ?  Your logic is akin to that of a terrorist's.this is very incorrect , but based on your own quote above about becoming a homicide bomber you have proved that your logic is akin the that of the terrorists Having read your opinions, you use any event you can to "punish" the people you don't like for being "wrong," be it a murder, a rape or a terrorist's bomb.? it is all about right and wrong , punishment is coming , but not from me . Because of people like you, the terrorists have already succeeded on many levels. You're so scared,; i do not fear any mortal, i  fear only the wrath of the creator to be directed against our great country because of the foolhardy logic and actions and in-actions of individuals such as your self , thank you very much . you feel that over-reacting & striking out violently is the only option.there are actually two options , but considering the secular nature of many including yourself , option two is not really an option .

 Clearly, they have reduced you to their level. you are too silly for words. if as you claim you have actually read any of my posts ; please explain to me what the goals of the wahhabi sect of the muslim religion and their arm al-qaeda really are ,and if i have erred in my assesment please reveiw my posts and document my error [s] , i humbly await your learned response .    no liberal / demoncrat / "dumbassery" hysteria , respond only with facts that you can document .               if however you cannot find an error after attempting to , feel free to change your opinion .    i address this to any who feel the urge to play .      play nice , or not .  let the games begin .

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back to the books anony-mouse.  

Both Jesus and Paul said it, we are not to judge.

In His "Sermon on the Mount," Jesus taught, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

The "speck of sawdust" is taken from a word which means "to wither," so this is "a dry twig or straw." On the other hand, the "plank" is "a stick of timber, or beam." The point is that not everyone is equally capable of wise discernment - some people can't see clearly enough to discern the sin in someone else because their own eye-sight is obstructed by a telephone pole!

i dont support this translation ; pay attention to the last paragraphs of revelations and to dueteronomy 4;2 , which both forbid changing anything in the scriptures , anything .

the book of matthew has the obvious errors regarding the geneology of Joeseph linking him to the "stem of Jesse" as noted in isaiah but that was / is useless info because Joeseph was not the father , that info was added later by ? for what reason ? unkown ? but it invalidates Matthew from serious discussion s .

either way i think it is safe to say we have the right to attack and destroy our enemies after they engage us in war .

The Apostle Paul gives a similar teaching in Romans 2:1-11:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism."

battle .you can follow the laws of the creator and still defend your country from attack by your enemies - no contraindications here .

mike of the mountain wrote:

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  back to the books anony-mouse.   Both Jesus and Paul said it, we are not to judge. In His "Sermon on the Mount," Jesus taught, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

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Mountain Mike,

I'm starting to get interested in this religion thing but it's the Jesus guy that's holding me back. Is there any chance you could serve him up with a couple more pairs of arms? That would be nice, thank you!