Niagara County Legislature

Don Hobel · Novice

Niagara County Legislature

Jim Sacco · Senior Member

Very good points to bring up Don. Have you asked the Legislative Clerk if the details/language in the proposed resolutions are available for public review before the meeting?

shermanwlvl · Senior Member

don good to see ya here in our world, and i have to agree and again nice to hear from ya.

shughes · Senior Member

I don't think resolutions are available until after being brought up for vote. They are not part of the public record unless they have been motioned to the table. I'm sure they could be made available, but they don't have to be.

Scott Leffler · Guru

shughes wrote:

They are not part of the public record unless they have been motioned to the table.

That's incorrect. Once they are drawn up on paper by the clerk, they are to be made public ... however, according to FOIL (like According to Hoyle), they have seven days to get it to you.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

Jim Sacco · Senior Member

Scott Leffler wrote:

shughes wrote: They are not part of the public record unless they have been motioned to the table.

Scott replied: That's incorrect. Once they are drawn up on paper by the clerk, they are to be made public ... however, according to FOIL (like According to Hoyle), they have seven days to get it to you. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

That is a very good point Scott. If the leadership of our County Legislature and their Legislative Clerk are true servants of the public, one would think they would act over and above the minimum requirements of the law and make those resolutions available before the meeting (especially if people like my friend Mr. Hobel requested them).

But the Legislative Clerk wants to be Mayor of NT so who would think that he would do something that faciltated public involvement for the good of the Niagara County taxpayers and risk offending someone in the Majority Caucus.

shughes · Senior Member

Scott Leffler wrote:

shughes wrote: They are not part of the public record unless they have been motioned to the table. That's incorrect. Once they are drawn up on paper by the clerk, they are to be made public ... however, according to FOIL (like According to Hoyle), they have seven days to get it to you. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

I have to disagree Scott. Until a resolution is brought before a public body it is a working document and does not have to be available under foil. The second it is motioned to the table regardless of the out come, it becomes public record. Is this in the spirit of the Open Meeting law, no. They should give the public the resolutions freely, but they don't have to.

Scott Leffler · Guru

shughes wrote:
I have to disagree Scott. Until a resolution is brought before a public body it is a working document and does not have to be available under foil.

Any paperwork - including potential wording for a resolution - that is recorded by an official body ... is FOIL-able according to NYS Sunshine Law.

What is a record?
The law defines "record" as "any information kept, held, filed, produced or reproduced by, with or for an agency or the State Legislature, in any physical form whatsoever. . ." (section 86(4)). Thus it is clear that items such as tape recordings, microfilm and computer discs fall within the definition of "record." An agency is not required to create a new record or provide information in response to questions to comply with the law.

As a reporter, I dealt with this law frequently. Robert Freeman, Executive Director of the Committee on Open Government answered this specific question for me when some government body or another (I don't recall which or when) attempted to keep something hidden specifically because it hadn't yet been adopted. Freeman told me they couldn't do that. An agenda is a public record. A proposed budget - prior to passage - is a public record. And so on.

The point that goverment bodies should use FOIL as a minimum guidelines is 100 percent correct. Lets not forget folks, the government are OUR employees. They work for us. They should always err on this side of us.

They err, alright. Just not sure on who's side.

shughes · Senior Member

I sure hit a nerve with you Scott. You are correct about the intent of this law, but this is a loop hole that is used all the time. Below is the exemption I am referring to.

· Interagency and intra-agency materials that are not statistical or factual tabulations or data; instructions to staff that affect the public; final agency policy or determinations; or external audits.

Resolutions are not factual tabulations until they are brought before the public body as a whole, they are working documents. All of the members can have the resolutions without the body as a whole having them. Like it or not, it is done all the time. I don't agree with this loop hole, but it's there. You can challenge the FOIL request, but by then it's moot.

Scott Leffler · Guru

Shughes,

You did hit a nerve ... because any agency using this "loophole" is evading the law. i.e. is taking ILLEGAL action. Glad to see you disagree with it, but that helps none if you refer to it as a "loophole." That's like saying anyone who gets away with murder is taking advantage of the "you didn't catch me so it's not illegal" loophole. Doesn't exist. Unfortunately, FOIL doesn't have much teeth becuase the government isn't genuinely interested in openness ... they just want to appear as though they are.

I guess I'm just a fanatic for honest, open government.

Allow me to rephrase ... any agency avoiding the intent of the law is avoiding the law itself. The Committee on Open Goverment is pretty clear on advising government bodies to err on the side of openness.

here's a link to what we're talking about so the rest can follow

-- Edited by Scott Leffler at 12:18, 2005-08-14

shughes · Senior Member

I don't disagree with you on that at all. Open Government should be open Government period. Most people don't take the time to challenge public bodies on issues like this. If they do they get run around in circles for awhile, then get tired and go away. Every time that happens it reinforces the behavior for the public bodies. How many people pick up the phone and call their elected officials? Face it, most people complain to anyone that listens, but don't do anything about it. Those who do stay involved get ridiculed for being fanatics. So now I ask you, how do we fix the problem?

Ed McDonald · Veteran Member

The Niagara County Legislature is the most secretive public body you will ever encounter. They (majority caucus) have the attitude of "who do you think you are questioning us". I have been trying to get a community services agenda e-mailed to me from Sklarski for 2 years. And don't bother asking because all you will get is smoke and mirrors. Especially now...election time.

Jim Sacco · Senior Member

shughes - you do make some very good points. Open government should be open to the public.

I see the frustration expressed by my friends Mr. Hobel and Mr. McDonald wondering how we fix the problem with County Government.

My thoughts right now are to consistently try to get a message out and find better ways to bring issues up that are of concern. Also, support others who do the same, even though you may disagree with the points they are bringing up.

Open Government should be open to the public. You can risk being called a fanatic, but does that really matter if you have a sound basis for the arguement you bring out?

shughes · Senior Member

Mr Sacco,

I am a huge supporter of open government and those who defend it. I am a strong defender of people who speak out about the abuses by officials. That was the reason for my posts. Many officials who criticize the secrecy before election/appointment change their position on this issue. The most important thing officials need to remember is that the word public is not just a word in their tile, it's the reason for that title. It doesn't matter if you or I agree with what people are saying, they have a right to say it. I am not at all in favor of the shoot the messenger mentality in this county. I can't fix the system, but I can and do stick up for what is right regardless of the issue.

Jim Sacco · Senior Member

Good points again, I agree.

Don Hobel · Novice

At least a great discussion on late resolutions. It would seem the easy test would be before the next meeting to ask Mike Carney if any late resolutions are scheduled and available for review? No one picked up on issues that there is no true agenda published and of allowing political caucus' in the middle of a public meeting. Not to mention calling committee meetings. Can our children hold up a class while they finish homework? That's pure disregard of the people, arrogance!

shughes · Senior Member

Your right about that one Don. They don't have to provide an agenda, but it's encouraged. Start asking for this stuff, see what they do. Do they send an agenda to the paper with the official meeting notice?