Greedy Corporations Suck

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

Greedy Corporations Suck

Date: Wed Nov 30 8:03 AM, 2005

You're right...greedy corporations suck. You're also right about management being at fault for a good share of the problems. However, I have to disagree with you about the wages and benefits for the hourly worker. I think $27 an hour might be excessive but you also need to understand the rest of the story. The hourly worker does not retire with a full pension. The average worker will gross aprrox. $33,000 a year after retirement. Not bad, but quite a pay cut from when they were working. Now let's talk about the working conditions. Many are made to work 9 hours a day during the week and forced to work 2 out of every 3 Saturdays. In the summer temperatures near 100 degrees in most areas, and hitting 120+ near presses and other machines. The only areas that are air conditioned in the factory are supervisors offices and some break rooms. Restrooms are up 2 huge flights of stairs, workers get two 9 minute and one 8 minute breaks. It takes the whole break to go to the bathroom and maybe get something to drink. There is no sitting down on the jobs or on breaks [there's no time] The day shift starts no later than 6am, the night shift sometimes doesn't end until 2am. So if you work shift work you could be getting up at 4:30am one week and going to bed at 3:30am the other week. How do you think you body adjusts to that?

Have you ever seen the workers at the end of a shift? Many limp out of the factory, others have problems turning their heads from neck and back injuries. Many have carpal tunnel in one wrist or both. Employees sitting at desk jobs don't have these problems!

Salary employees have it much better. They have the flexibilty to run to their children's school for parties, awards assemblys, etc. Most of the time the work 5 days a week in air conditioned offices. Some even job share, they have children to take care of so they split a 40 hour job with another person. Some salary employees have been treated to breakfast at the former Sheraton on Walden Ave. When they were done they were given gift cards to the Galleria Mall with several hundred dollars on them. That way they could spend the rest of the day shopping.

I could go on and on. The point is most people have no idea what it's like inside that place. I'm tired of hearing everyone criticize the hourly worker. Put the blame where it belongs...on management.

It will be interesting to see how many people come out and support the employees at the rally. Just think about how much Delphi impacts the local economy, way more than the air base.

kspeer · Senior Member

"Now let's talk about the working conditions. Many are made to work 9 hours a day during the week and forced to work 2 out of every 3 Saturdays. In the summer temperatures near 100 degrees in most areas, and hitting 120+ near presses and other machines. The only areas that are air conditioned in the factory are supervisors offices and some break rooms. " - Anon

Air conditioning is not a right. What about people who work at Metal Cladding or E kote at Whiting Door, now that's some real heat. Quite a weight loss plan too! And those factory workers don't make close to $27 an hour. They are doing the same kind of work. What makes Delphi deserve more? Hmmmm......union contracts maybe? What's really sad is Metal Cladding has the same union as Delphi.

Jim Hufnagel · Senior Member

I disagree with the title of this post "Greedy Corporations Suck".

Corporations are not people and they do not exhibit human qualities. They do not operate from human motives. The sole purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholder value, period. They have a fiduciary responsibility to do everything legal to accomplish this.

So if it is in the interest of the Delphi Corporation and its stockholders to screw the living daylights out of its employees and retirees, and the law allows them a mechanism to do so, all the whining and name-calling and accusations are utterly useless distractions.

Case in point: the caller on Dialog yesterday who railed against Miller getting a multi-million compensation package.

We live in a free market economy. If you don't like what Steve Miller gets paid, then don't buy a GM car, or anything else that has Delphi parts, and especially none that are made out of steel from Bethlehem Steel, get on the Delphi board via a proxy vote and reform the company from the inside out, stop voting for politicians like the one who engineered the $20 million giveaway to Delphi a few years ago, get a good lawyer and sue Delphi for not acting in the shareholder interest, and join a good non-profit that advocates for corporate responsibility.

-- Edited by Jim Hufnagel at 14:27, 2005-11-30

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

"Now let's talk about the working conditions. Many are made to work 9 hours a day during the week and forced to work 2 out of every 3 Saturdays. In the summer temperatures near 100 degrees in most areas, and hitting 120+ near presses and other machines. The only areas that are air conditioned in the factory are supervisors offices and some break rooms. " - Anon

So wait, 9 hours a day and 3 Saturdays a month equals $40.50 a hour in over time. $40 an hour??? Where do I sign up?

A couple years ago I had a night job where I had to work nights, weekends and holidays. I made a little over $10 an hour. No extra money for holidays or overnight pay. No breaks (after all, I'm a non-smoker, why would I need a break?) and 30 minutes for lunch - IF our workload allowed it. Rarely was overtime paid out... I would have no problem working swing shift if I made $27 an hour.

I'm not saying they (Delphi workers) have ideal working conditions, I just don't think it warranted $27 an hour. Most factory workers make no where near that.

Cutting the employees pay down in half IS wrong, but they never should have been making that kind of money to begin with.

And talking about how salaried worked get free lunch and gift cards makes me realize more and more how poorly mismanaged the company is. And what happens to mismanaged companies??? They go out of business.

Mindcrime · Guru

Jim Hufnagel wrote:

...Corporations are not people and they do not exhibit human qualities. They do not operate from human motives. The sole purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholder value, period. They have a fiduciary responsibility to do everything legal to accomplish this. So if it is in the interest of the Delphi Corporation and its stockholders to screw the living daylights out of its employees and retirees, and the law allows them a mechanism to do so, all the whining and name-calling and accusations are utterly useless distractions...

Yes, it's legal, but wholly reprehensible and totally unnecessary. Corporations are people as much as government is made of people. Everyone likes to envision them as some kind of faceless building that walks around on tree-trunk legs doing horrible and illogical things in psuedo anonymity. That's an illusion. Every crappy thing a corporation does is initiated by a human being, usually one wearing a tie, who is soulless, selfish and driven by incredible greed. A corporation is merely a gathering of these insatiable power-mongers all under the same roof for mutual advantage.

Now, as I said, it's usually the white-collar criminals who make a corporation look bad, and do bad things, but that has nothing to do with the blue collar folks earning far more than they're worth. If you make $27 an hour, know that you are earning 3 times what most others in Lockport are making, or the country for that matter. Many people have to work 2 or 3 regular jobs just to be broke. And most of them also work holidays, weekends, under harsh conditions and without bathroom breaks. I used to work until 2am, and that's if everything went right (which it rarely did). I worked with toxic chemicals with little to no protection, I worked in an ancient building which made everyone sick and I worked under incredible pressure from management. I wasn't making $27/hour to do it.

Couch Potato, move over, I'll sign up, too. I would be ecstatic to make that kind of green. I'd be happy with $20, or even $15. I wouldn't be living paycheck to paycheck like I am now, scrimping and saving just to make my car insurance payment. And I have no sympathy for people who were making that much money just because they were uncomfortable at work. I tested to get into (at the time) Harrison. There were 30-some people in the test room, several of whom could barely write their names. I was the first one done on almost every test. But I didn't get hired...Don't tell me that you have to be a skilled laborer or a specialist to work there. I lost out on a Harrison job to people who couldn't outspell a 10-year-old.

You don't have to be ultra-greedy to succeed in business. That's a proven fact. But companies that lack vision, creativity and intelligent, moral leadership have to cheat and screw the little guy. I most certainly can fault corporations for being greedy. And I do.

-- Edited by Mindcrime at 19:39, 2005-11-30

RattyJenn · Senior Member

--PC Tony hit the nail right on the head today. I really thought what he said about the Delphi situation was very good advice. It was really profound, in fact. You can't just quit, if you still have a job and some semblance of security...But there are no jobs out there. And I swear, if I could find a job where I got health insurance and a pension and made anything over six bucks an hour, I'd be thrilled. People who have health insurance have no idea what it is like to go without...I mean I wouldn't consider myself poverty stricken, but I sure do feel it if I ever have to go to the doctor. I do feel bad for the Delphi employees because they have gotten used to a certain standard of living, but still, I mean, God, that's alot of money....

Scott Leffler · Guru

Jenn,

More than one person has commented to me about PC Tony's soliloquy on Delphi, so I posted it by itself on the podcast page.

Download it here.

Date: Thu Dec 1 1:08 PM, 2005

What complements these corporations being so greedy is the tax breaks given to them by our great New York State Governor, and the IDA!

How unfair is that to other businesses?? Especially businesses that are competing with the companies getting these tax breaks!

It is corporate welfare!

Scott, you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of this issue today. Some may say this is a more conservative idea, you can still say you are a Liberal because it is NOT Liberals or Conservatives that are ruining this State, it is the MODERATES! They are the ones doing the harm to us with these programs that are not ever evaluated to see how good they are!!

Wad963 · Member

Why does it seem everybody bashing the Delphi workers have to go into detail about how little they make and how hard they work. This is just basic envy. They begrudge the Delphi worker for having a better compensation package. They think everyone should make what they make and anyone who makes more is somehow screwing the system. Fine take away the factory jobs and slash the pay of the few that remain...if you had any knowledge of economics you would realize that eventually everyone's income and standard of living will fall. So get over it, Delphi might be in trouble but the blame isn't on the employees, it is on the third world countries that allow their people to work for peanuts, our government for allowing imports of cheap crap made at subsistence level wages, us people who buy every made in China piece of junk at walmart. Those are the problems that need to be addressed, cutting Delphi workers pay in half may solve Delphi's problems but not ours, it will make things worse.

Scott Leffler · Guru

You're missing the point. It's not envy. I think people point out their own salary - not as an envy method - but to show how out of sync Delphi (and others) are. If the downtrodden can figure out how to live on less than $10 an hour, Delphi employees should be able to too. If they didn't have to, great - but they want the rest of Niagara County - which makes less than them - to suddenly SUPPORT them. It just doesn't add up.

And give me a break - now we're goign to dictate what people make in "third world countries" ... such as Alabama and North Carolina? Come on Kev. I'm sure your union brethren appreciate the solidarity, but I'm not sure how much weight it's going to carry here.

-- Edited by Scott Leffler at 16:42, 2005-12-01

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

Scott Leffler wrote:

It's not envy. I think people point out their own salary - not as an envy method - but to show how out of sync Delphi (and others) are. If the downtrodden can figure out how to live on less than $10 an hour, Delphi employees should be able to too. If they didn't have to, great - but they want the rest of Niagara County - which makes less than them - to suddenly SUPPORT them. It just doesn't add up.

*claps* You hit the nail right on the head.

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

From the US&J

“Today Delphi is paying double, triple or more for hourly labor compared to what prevails in the market place. No business can survive doing that,” he said.

Jon McManus, a Delphi worker for six years, wasn’t buying it. He had a suggestion for Miller and other auto industry executives.

“I’d say, take the focus off of money and put the focus on making quality cars and they wouldn’t be in this problem,” he said. “If you make quality cars, the money takes care of itself, you know?”

Question- doesn't the same union this guy works for also work in the factories where the very cars he is refering to are manufactured?

Wad963 · Member

So don't support anyone who has it better than you...ok got it.

Call it what you will but it still sounds like envy, or are we as a community supposed to accept $10/hr as an acceptable living and anyone making more should willingly allow thier salaries to be lowered to keep everyone in line. I know you might be willing to support a more socialist society but I don't know that everyone else is. The fact is no one can take a 50% wage cut regardless of how much they are making. If you make $27 or $10 an hour your lifestyle reflects that rate and to lose half of it would ruin you finacially, think about how many homes would be lost or have to be sold, property values would drop in this area. Why does everyone expect the Delphia workers to just sit back and not fight. If no one fought in these situations, pretty soon the people who are paying $10/hr would state thay was to much and they needed to reduce wages to stay competitive. Employees must always fight to keep what they have, to expect anyone to do otherwise is foolish. And anyone that thinks willingly accepting a pay cut will guarantee that plant will stay here is sadly mistaken. There will be plant closings regardless of what the UAW ends up accepting for wages, and if Lockport is on the list it will close.

Scott Leffler · Guru

Wad963 wrote:

So don't support anyone who has it better than you...ok got it.

And yet, obviously, you don't.

I know you might be willing to support a more socialist society but I don't know that everyone else is. [/blockquote]

So letting the free market work is socialist now?

I'm not saying that the union is 100 percent at fault. And I'm sure not saying that the company is blameless. Plenty of blame to go around. But quit the grandstanding and figure something out. Quit fighting for $27 an hour. You're not going to get it. Fight for $18 an hour. MAYBE you'll get that. Be happy you DID work for $27 an hour (I mean the general you - I know YOU don't work for Delphi, Kevin). And drop this rhetoric that "people can't live on $12 an hour." It only alienates people making $12 an hour - or less. I'm sorry Delphi employees set themselves a standard of living tha they can't maintain. Life sucks. Get a helmet. Move on. Sell your condo - your boat - and your "summer car." You'll figure something out.

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

Call it envy if you want but I still disagree. A common factory worker should not make $27 an hour. Cutting their salaries is NOT fair, but they never should have been making that to begin with. How can a company survive paying factory workers $27 an hour and management a million a year? Eventually, something will need to change.

And asking people who barely make above minimum wage to support workers making $27 an hour is silly. If I only made $7 an hour busting my @$$ to earn that, why should I feel bad for people making 4 times what I do? True, their house cost more than mine. But I guess that's why I live in an apartment, I don't have the finances to afford a house. See, I don't make $27 an hour and I will be paying for my college education for many, many years. Guess, I should have skipped college and gotten me a $27 an hour job at Delphi.

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

Scott Leffler wrote:
I'm sorry Delphi employees set themselves a standard of living tha they can't maintain. Life sucks. Get a helmet. Move on. Sell your condo - your boat - and your "summer car." You'll figure something out.
Who would have thought I would agree with Scott so much? But he's right, it's time to cut corners. I guess Delphi workers are going to have turn off their cable, and skip that vacation this year. I hope since they were making all this extra dough, that they planned for the future and had some money set aside. Welcome to life.

Mindcrime · Guru

Wad963 wrote:

If you make $27 or $10 an hour your lifestyle reflects that rate and to lose half of it would ruin you finacially

Yes, your lifestlye is determined by your pay, but there comes a point where you need a bare-minimum salary to survive. And all I'm talking about are the most basic necessities. Rent, food, and water. Everything else you can get rid of if you absolutely had to. BUT, it means you have to live near your work, because you can't afford a car or insurance. It means you have a pay phone within walking distance. It means you never eat in a restaurant - ever. You get by on baloney & cereal. You settle for the barbershop $6 haircut instead of going to a salon in the mall. You have no TV, no VCR/DVD, no cable, no computer, limited wardrobe (no designer clothing), no jewelry, no entertainment, no credit cards, no nice furniture, if any, no extras at all. You can survive on minimum wage, barely. Which is not that far off from $10 an hour. All that extra $4 gets you is a phone, a crummy TV, and maybe the car, if it's a P.O.S. Ford Taurus.

If you go from making $30/hour to $10, YOU have to adjust YOUR standard of living. Why? Because you're not the US government which can live luxuriously on deficit spending. You have to live within your means. If you were getting Delphi wages for the last 10, 15, 30 years, and didn't think to put some of that disposable income away for a rainy day, then you have to sell your big house and move into a smaller one, or even an apartment. Do what you have to do. It won't "ruin you financially" if you simply adjust your lifestyle. You may have to give up some things you've become accustomed to. But don't expect the poor slobs you looked down on all these years to support you back up to what you were making.

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

Sucks to work at Delphi.

But, the money to pay employees has to come from somewhere & with American auto sales not what they used to be & profits from those sales decreasing due to forced lower prices to compete with foreign autos, how can the money conceivably be there to pay unskilled labor $27 /hr.

The state coughed up cash before for Delphi & what did it accomplish?

Why give any more aid? Why not take that cheap electricity & extra cash the state has burning a hole in its pockets & give it to the community in the form of tax relief & lower power costs?

What makes the few at Delphi so special over the many in the community?

Phantom · Veteran Member

Jim Hufnagel wrote:

We live in a free market economy. If you don't like what Steve Miller gets paid, then don't buy a GM car, or anything else that has Delphi parts, and especially none that are made out of steel from Bethlehem Steel, get on the Delphi board via a proxy vote and reform the company from the inside out, stop voting for politicians like the one who engineered the $20 million giveaway to Delphi a few years ago, get a good lawyer and sue Delphi for not acting in the shareholder interest, and join a good non-profit that advocates for corporate responsibility.

People may be jealous because these guys make 7-figure salaries, but it's not why they're criticized. These guys are making tons of money to ruin the biggest company in town. It's not like they're movie stars, whose exhorbitant salaries don't affect you personally. When these executives get their farewell bonuses and severance and pensions, etc., they'll be multi-millionaires. And Lockport will get a big empty building. F*** you very much, Delphi...

Who can afford to sue Delphi? Who's got enough connections to just "get on the Delphi board?" Who can control what kind of parts your car contains? Unless you buy a foreign car, and then MOTM will yell at you. And what are the odds that a non-profit advocate will make the tiniest dent in what they're doing at Delphi? "Hmm, I can continue business as usual and make piles of cash, OR I could be a nice guy and listen to some bleeding heart advocacy group." Lemme know how that works out for ya.

Wad963 · Member

I'm not saying that the union is 100 percent at fault. And I'm sure not saying that the company is blameless. Plenty of blame to go around. But quit the grandstanding and figure something out. Quit fighting for $27 an hour. You're not going to get it. Fight for $18 an hour. MAYBE you'll get that. Be happy you DID work for $27 an hour .

For starters Scott raising holy hell over the threat of a cut to $12 and fighting for $27 is how you maybe get $18. This whole process is a negotiation. Delphi says they need wages at $12, UAW say $27, they'll meet somewhere in between. If the Union just says ok, we will fight for $18, then they will end up between 12 an 18.

But that is away from my original points which are
1. People continue to complain that $27 an hour is too much, but there basis for that belief seems to usually be by comparing it to what they make. Maybe it is too high, but no one has taken the time to figure it out. It would require an in depth look at Delphi's financials and the pay of competitors employees. It can't be based on 'well I only make $10/hr so that is a fair wage for them also."

2. It is ridiculous to think that they shouldn't fight for what they have(the above illustration of negotiations being one reason). Any person facing a cut in benefits would want to fight it, any employee with the means to fight it would. They have the means, why shouldn't they fight. If they blindly accept the cuts just because Delphi says that is what it needs, shouldn't all employees do the same. And if that is the case, well I can't think of too many companies that wouldn't be better off with lower wage expenses, so maybe everyone should take a cut. The point is, only the bankruptcy court is going to be able to determine what is a necessary wage level for Delphi to be profitable, maybe it will be less than $27/hr. I just don't understand why everyone is so quick to accept what Delphi says is the absolute truth.(except that they seem to be jealous of the wages they aren't getting, and would like to see the Delphi employees take a hit)

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

I think minimum wage should be based on several factors not limited to:

- Level of education of employee. Someone with a Bachelor's or Master's degree (or higher) should make more than someone with a high school diploma or GED.

- Senority within the company. Another person with the same job description as you who has been there longer should see a higher income.

- Cost of living within the community. Example: People who work in NYC SHOULD make more than someone in Lockport because their cost of living is higher.

- Experience. Has this person worked elsewhere doing similar work? For how many years?

A couple facts I found online:
1999 - median household income:

$24,536 - Buffalo
$26,800 - Niagara Falls
$35,222 - Lockport

Now, keep in mind this is HOUSEHOLD income so some households will have more than one income coming in. And the stats are from 1999. These numbers still astounded me. My boyfriend and I (combined incomes), make well over the median. Yet, each month we struggle to pay our bills.

Based on the average for Lockport, $27/ hour ($56K a year per person without overtime), IS excessive and I can't image a lot of people who are barely able to pay their bills each month earning a little more than minimum wage, willing to fight for someone to continue to earn $27 an hour.

Should the Delphi workers fight for their salaries? Sure. Sure they expect to get it? Probably not. Should the public be expected to feel bad for them if they get dropped down to $12 an hour? No.

Date: Fri Dec 2 10:09 PM, 2005

Ok, so all Delphi employees should take a huge pay cut. Then they will all have to cut back on the extras. Great, turn off the cable tv and hi speed internet access. The result - Adelphia will have to cut back on employees. Trim back on dining out, area restaurants will have to lay-off staff. Skip pizza deliveries, and pizza/sub shops will have to lay-off delivery people and staff. I can guarantee you this and alot more is happening right now in Lockport. Nail salons and hairdressers are already feeling the pinch, so are restaurants. Do you really think those employees are running out to spend big bucks on Christmas this year?

But what I really want to know is how come nobody's complaining about how much the county employees make? How come nobody's saying anything about the wages of other union employees?

Wake Up America! If Delphi gets away with this watch Ford, GM, Chrysler, Verizon, and every other large corporation in America. They'll all jump on the bandwagon. Until Washington does something about NAFTA the race to the bottom will snowball. The federal bankruptcy court should hold Delphi accountable. They lured employees to work for them with big money and benefits. Many of those people quit college to go there to work and now the company wants to back out on the promises and the contracts.

To all you college educated people out there you need to read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". Get a life, we all put ours pants on the same way every day.

Mindcrime · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

Ok, so all Delphi employees should take a huge pay cut. Then they will all have to cut back on the extras. Great, turn off the cable tv and hi speed internet access. The result - Adelphia will have to cut back on employees. Trim back on dining out, area restaurants will have to lay-off staff. Skip pizza deliveries, and pizza/sub shops will have to lay-off delivery people and staff. I can guarantee you this and alot more is happening right now in Lockport.

*sigh* OK, once more for the cheap seats:

IF THE PLANT CLOSES ALTOGETHER, IT WILL BE MUCH WORSE.

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled talking points.

kspeer · Senior Member

"Nail salons and hairdressers are already feeling the pinch, so are restaurants. "

- I beg to differ on the restaurant issue. We have found (through actual research) that most of our customers live in Amherst, NT, NF and Tonawanda. Granted we don't know if they are Delphi employees, but in the grand scheme there aren't that many Delphi employees anyway. And our sales are just a little bit higher than they were last year at this same time. The weather is our biggest factor.