PC Tony's all wet

Date: Fri Dec 2 3:45 PM, 2005

PC Tony's all wet

RattyJenn · Senior Member

Wow.

The depth of your ignorance is profound, Anonymous....Here is a guy, just getting by, and all you can do is trash him? My God, have you ever been out of work? On unemployment? I have, and it sucks. Really, really sucks. I would rather work three jobs for practically minimum wage than be on unemployment. Yes, the standard of the American worker is in trouble, but it will be with or without Delphi, unfortunately. I just heard on the world news that "Coach" luxury leather goods is a great new source odf job growth. Who buys coach leather goods? RICH PEOPLE, that's who. That is who is doing well.

I work, for one third of what the Delphi workers do. I have no health insurance. I have no pension. So, maybe I am a complete idiot, but I am thankful to have a job at all...so, I suppose I am part of the problem. So don't tell me how traumatic this pay cut will be for the Delphi people. Of course it will be horrible.

My father worked for the former Carborundum Abrasives for 37 years, until one day, they uncerimoniously closed the plant. He was devistated. It took him over a year to find a job. But he did, and it was no-where near what he was making at Carborundum, but he was grateful. He was glad just to be working. And Carborundum exposed him to all kinds of crap. All sorts of carginogins, and his father, another generation of factory workers, (Union Carbide metallugist Wm. Stevenson) died of Asbestosis and Mesothelioma...this is what the American Factory Worker puts themselve through. Is it right? Of course not. Do the corperations know? Of course they do.

Yes, Delphi employees will certainly suffer a hardship. But if they "stay the course" they will at least maintain the self respect of having a job.

-- Edited by RattyJenn at 18:56, 2005-12-02

-- Edited by RattyJenn at 18:59, 2005-12-02

Date: Fri Dec 2 7:22 PM, 2005

I made a mistake in saying he was embarrasing, i apologize.

I stand by the rest of the post though. I believe that any able bodied (and if he works three jobs he is) can either learn a trade or go to school for a better job.

There are plenty of truck driving jobs out there paying much more than $7. Nurses, nurses aides, LPN,s are all needed. There are jobs out there.

Now if Delphi goes down, who knows what jobs will be around.

Those workers though are standing up for all of us, saying, NO, we don't want to be like mexican or chinese workers, pay us fair!

I think most of them realize that they will be getting a pay cut, but not to $10 an hour!

Date: Fri Dec 2 7:25 PM, 2005

Scott, also in regards to why we need unions, sure Delphi right now is not like a sweat shop, but I have been told the $10 an hour offer also takes away almost all the work rules they had. It will become very close to a sweat shop when they are done.

Also, at $10 an hour, (~$1600 a month) the company wants them to pay $400 for health care, plus havce a $800 deductable. Thats closer and closer to the days of where the company store owns you!

Mindcrime · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

I don't have the time to research the facts, but I was told at $10 an hour (~$20K/year) most Delphi employess would be at poverty level, eligible for food stamps, etc. .....Get some education or get a trade, you are embarrasing your family working two jobs at $7 an hour....

Find the time to do some research. I make $10/hour, and I'm no where near food stamp eligibility. According to the state I should be able to support a wife & 3 kids on my wage before I qualify for stamps. HEAP told me the same thing. Poverty level my ass. Where are my stamps, b****? Going to school or learning a trade is a great suggestion, as long as you can afford the time and money to go to school or apprentice in addition to supporting your family on two or three lousy jobs. Truck drivers and nurses go to school as well, and guess what? It's not free. And health care? What's that? Do you know how many Americans have zero health care? If I ever need surgery, I'm screwed. I can't afford to get hurt or have an accident - ever.

As for your advice to Tony, to just stop "working two jobs at $7 an hour," Why do you think he's working those jobs? Have you looked for work lately? Do you think he pored through the classifieds for hours until he found a pizza delivery job? Tony: "Lessee.....$12.hr., nah.....$14/hr., nope.....$47k/yr? Nah, not fer me.....Hmm, $29/hr, mega-benefits, pension, perks, nah, sounds complicated.....Hey, here's a coupla crummy minimum wage jobs, I better call on those before they're taken!"

Tony is being a man, by not letting pride interfere with taking care of his family. As long as he's keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table, he's being more of a man than the whiny b*****es at Delphi.

RattyJenn · Senior Member

Yes. Obviously something is wrong. But a lot of the problem has to do with the skyrocketing cost of health insurance, and the obscene pay that CEOs get. And going to school, especially if you are working constantly takes time, and effort. How could you expect anyone to try to work constantly, and go to school? It would be impossible.

I suppose it is unfortunately, it is a vicious cycle. But I certainly respect your opinion, anon, and the fact that you felt some remorse over what you said. I really believe Tony is a good guy, just trying to make ends meet, like a lot of us nowadays....

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

Anon - After I heard Scott read your 'letter', I had to find this post and read it for myself. I couldn't believe that someone would actually say all those things. And of course, posting anonymously.

What world are you living in, if $10 an hour ($20K/year) would be at poverty level, eligible for food stamps??? I'll tell ya... if you were trying to support FIVE PEOPLE, yes, that would be poverty. But if you have a wife and three kids, your wife is no doubt working anyhow, therefore increasing your income level. (http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/05poverty.shtml)

Here's what angers me more though:
For the record, going to school DOES NOT guarantee a high paying job. I went to college, have a very expensive Bachelor's degree that I will be paying for for the next 20 years and my first job out of college paid $5.50. Yes, it was IN MY FIELD. I have over 8 years professional experience in my "trade" and it's exceedingly difficult to find a job to begin with. One that pays more than $10 an hour is even more difficult. I looked for 13 months for the last job I had in New York. Why don't you try finding a job that pays worth a damn. Please tell me where all these high paying jobs with mega benefits are.

And to be honest, I would be better off financially if I didn't have student loans to pay for every month. One year my brother earned more than I did and he DETAILS CARS with a high school diploma.

SCHOOLING DOES NOT GUARANTEE BIG BUCKS.

My current HMO sucks. It's not free and my co-pays are high. I have no 401K.

I applaud Tony. He's busting his ass to support his family and make ends meet and that's better than accepting food stamps and HEAP. Do you think people want to work 2 or 3 dead end jobs to make ends meet??? Do you think it's by CHOICE???

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. Take a look around. Go back to Fantasy-land anytime you want.

Mindcrime · Guru

Here's Fantasy Math Class:

You have 2 jobs that each pay $8/hr. We'll be even more generous and make one of them full time. So you get 40 hours a week from one job and 25 from the other. Including travel time, and sleeping, you still have about a 61 hours a week to see your family and go to school to "improve your life."

BUT:

You're only making $520 a week. Not too bad. Minus $120 for taxes and health insurance. That's $1,600 a month.

You, your wife, two kids and the dog live in a crummy 2 bedroom apartment, which costs about $600/mo. Your furniture is hand-me-downs and you live a spartan existence.

That leaves you with about $1000. You have one semi-reliable car with a modest payment of $175/mo. Insurance is $80/mo. Gas for the car costs you about $150/mo. (Miraculously, the car never needs maintenance, ie: not a Ford Taurus)

Average food bill for a family of four is around $80/week (mom clips coupons and buys generic brands).

*Ring, ring* Hello, Utilities? It's for you. Electric, Gas, Telephone... $200

This leaves $75. You cannot afford a trade school or even a community college. At this point, you have no cable, no internet connection, no cell phones, no dishwasher, no A/C. We are also assuming you have no credit card debt, and no previous student loans. We are also assuming that you or your family have no health problems so there is no need for medication or excessive doctor visits. Chances are what health insurance you have doesn't include dental. You have not gone out to any movies or restaurants. You have no life insurance or renter's insurance. You have zero savings, no retirement and no college fund for the children. A Delphi worker has made this much before lunch on Monday.

It's the end of the month, and you have $75 to spare. This doesn't include any new clothes or pet food, so you're naked and the dog is hungry.... Well, better hurry, you've got $25 to spend on each of your family members for Christmas. Hope it's a merry one...

-- Edited by Mindcrime at 23:04, 2005-12-02

Date: Sat Dec 3 5:18 AM, 2005

How can a delphi worker tell anyone to get an education if they are jealous of them making $27 plus per hour, when 99% are just high school graduates or less? I guess the easy way might have been the wrong choice when you people choice GM over an education. As a harrisonite once said when he called into Scott's show, If your not happy with your career choice or level of pay then quit your job and stop blaming everyone else...Backatcha!

NYCOWIFE · Veteran Member

There are tons of people out there not making nearly close to $27 an hour that have wonderful lives.

Also there are tons of people out there not making close to $27 an hour that risk their lives everday...Police officers, Correction officers, firemen etc etc.

My father worked for the Steel Industry for years to one day walk into work and whoops....they were closed. He was out of work for a while ( a long while) and was humiliated while loing for a job at 45 ( or so) years old...with Companies/factories telling him he was "too old" (yes basically that is what they said~). He lost almost all of his pension....meaning almost all....this is still pending ~HA!

He busted his ass for 20 years for this place....yes pay was good and that made the hard work well worth it to raise his family. He often states that in order NOT to loose the long term bennies that he had w/ that company....he would have take a cut in pay rather than loose his job.

I think that if everyone gave a little....it would be much better than closing the place down...

Just my thought....

Date: Sat Dec 3 5:44 AM, 2005

Mindcrime,

Your example was great, but if the Delphi people don't stand up and fight they will be making less than you propose, $400 a week before the deductions! And as I said before there is only so many 2nd jobs for people to get.

My point is, yes, I feel sorry for you people making $7 an hour. But the people making $27 an hour, some ready to retire, shouldn't be knocked down to that level because some politician thought it would be good to keep the chinese in business at $2 a day.

Delphi people will take a pay cut, yes - but it should be reasonable.

For those of you making $7 an hour, would you like your boss to come in and say we have a chinese guy here who will deliver that pizza for $3 an hour, take a pay cut or get out?

Mindcrime · Guru

My employment examples, and I think most will agree, were fairly generous. This why PC Tony is working 3 part time jobs. Just finding a median full time job is difficult at best. If the average Delphi worker has to supplement his $10/hr factory job by getting another part time position, just do it. Or continue to stand on principle alone, and be like PC Tony, who is busting his ass at three jobs just to get by. My hat goes off to him.

If Delphi does go under, it will be both sides' fault, because neither management or the workers want to compromise. Both sides will lose their jobs. Both sides will force the company to close. And both sides will have zero income. Oh, wait, that's just your side. Now do you see what Tony's talking about? They don't care which way this goes. To management, it's a matter of "Do I retire in the Bahamas or the Hamptons?" To the workers, it will be "Will I ever retire?"

Do yourselves a favor and work with the company. Compromise. $10/hr is better than $0/hr. There is no shame in concilliation. It's a long, cold winter to be huddled around a flaming garbage can on the Revitalized Main Street.

Ed McDonald · Veteran Member

Do yourselves a favor and work with the company. Compromise. $10/hr is better than $0/hr. There is no shame in concilliation. It's a long, cold winter to be huddled around a flaming garbage can on the Revitalized Main Street.

Mindcrime, I couldn't disagree with you more vigorously! I have read many of your post and you are no dummy! But to say $10/hr is a compromise from $27/hr, I don't know you personally, you must be in management. Because, that is the definition of compromise to management. "Ok we'll "Compromise" we'll do it our way".

People who make $27/hr live in $27/hr homes, drive $27/hr cars, take $27/hr vacations, have $27/hr worth of children (I don't know how many children that is),and save to send their children to $27/hr colleges.

You say its ok take that $10, make sacrifices. Sell that $27/hr home you have been living in for years, sell that $27/hr car you own, give up those $27/hr vacations and put the 10,12, and 14 year old kids up for adoption.

But the problem is you can't sell the $27/hr home, or the car or the vacation, or the kids, because NO ONE is making $27/hr and you certainly can't afford a $27/hr anything on $10/hr. Now can we!

What's next? Well to save your home because there aren't $27/hr people to buy it, first you use the vacation fund, then the kids’ college funds. When that gone what do you do with that $27 home that still has 10 years on the mortgage. You go broke, bankrupt; the bank takes you're car, you're home, everything. Now what is the bank going to do with that $27/hr home and car? Surely, they're not going to sell it to someone who makes less than $27/hr they would lose tons of money. Is that good for the economy? Banks losing money? Of course not.

No all is not lost, get a couple of parttime jobs. If there were 8-10 thousand parttime jobs, we wouldn't have anyone unemployed or on welfare.

So now you have over the years, a bunch of empty houses, no one paying property, school, or any other kind of tax and the whole thing just snowballs. You get the picture.

They say history repeats its self. One day when your boss or any body else’s boss comes in and says "sorry guys I have to cut your pay by 60%" your telling me nobody will try to do anything about it. Maybe not, but that, a why unions were formed in the first place. To stop that kind of action. The voice of many is heard over the voice of the few.

Someday all you union haters, may be in a union. Because the union protects the worker. We don't have management saying to everyone and I do mean everyone, why would you think it couldn't happen to you, sorry but.........

-- Edited by Ed McDonald at 04:17, 2005-12-04

-- Edited by Ed McDonald at 04:20, 2005-12-04

NYCOWIFE · Veteran Member

I think mindcrimes post did say to compromise....maybe using the $10 was a example?

I am not a union hater here...my hubby is in a union ~ in fact a union rep.

BUT I do believe that in some instances the workers ( or shall I say union members) should negotiate...rather than have their plant etc close. I would much rather work say for a lesser amount per hour than have to search for another job.

As for the $27 hour lifestyle.....some ( mind you I said some not ALL) of the Delphi workers live above that.... working 60+ hours a week and bragging that they watch DVD's, play cards at work or run errands during work time etc. etc. and getting paid the big bucks for it. I have heard some brag about this numerous times...that they do nothing at work so why wouldn't they work a gazillion hours a week...

This I think is one of the problems...paying "non-productive" employees.

Date: Sun Dec 4 3:13 PM, 2005

Hey Ed, why do you care what happens to anyone? Your rich uncle died and left you millions.

Ed McDonald · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

Hey Ed, why do you care what happens to anyone? Your rich uncle died and left you millions.

Hey anonymous, I don't usually answer replies from people who aren't man/women enough to put their name to a comment.... but look you jerk, leave my family out of any discussion!!!! GOT IT!!! You coward!

-- Edited by Ed McDonald at 17:02, 2005-12-04

Date: Sun Dec 4 4:58 PM, 2005

Hey Ed ~ stop being a Million Dollar Baby! ~ GOT IT?

soccermom · Member

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Ed McDonald. No one is safe. Miller is comparing Delphi wages to third world countries making parts for pennies. Why aren't the big executives making sacrafices? What's fair for the hourly employee is fair for salary employee. Delphi didn't need Miller, any moron could have called a news conference and insulted the American worker. It's the Steve Miller 2005 Bankruptcy Tour. This company declared bankrupcy in the US and any profits from holdings outside the country don't count. What a plan, spin off all the component plants from GM that you don't want, call them Delphi. Assign all the loser executives to Delphi. Invest all the earnings from the US plants overseas and build factories to replace the American work force. Reward the loser executives with big bonuses, file bankruptcy, make believe you want to negotiate and close the US plants. Instead of arguing about what everybody's making we should be worried about where we go from here. Who's job is next and what's going to happen to the American dream?

Mindcrime · Guru

Ed McDonald wrote:

....to say $10/hr is a compromise from $27/hr, I don't know you personally, you must be in management. Because, that is the definition of compromise to management. "Ok we'll "Compromise" we'll do it our way". People who make $27/hr live in $27/hr homes, drive $27/hr cars, take $27/hr vacations, have $27/hr worth of children (I don't know how many children that is),and save to send their children to $27/hr colleges. You say its ok take that $10, make sacrifices.

Yes, I was a manager once. And as a manager, it was part of my job to compromise between upper management and the people I oversaw. Both sides need to make cocesssions, but make no mistake, in this particular case, with Delphi, they have the upper hand. You need them far more than they need you. You've heard of supply and demand? $27/hr. workers are not in high demand.

Many people seem to think that 'compromise' means deciding on an agreeable wage. What Delphi's compromise will entail is whether the plant stays open or not, not how much they'll pay employees.

Meet Bob. Bob works at Delphi, making $27/hr. Now, if Bob bought houses, cars, boats, college educations, etc. based on his $27/hr earnings, why did Bob not save any of it? Meet Sally. Sally works as a secretary. At $10/hr, Sally can save very little. Most of her paycheck goes to surving until the next one. She has an excuse. How did Bob fail to put some money aside or invest it? That's just poor financial planning. If Bob lived within his means, and not beyond them, he would have little to wory about.

I have no retirement because I mathematically cannot save money for it. How much of your salary went towards things you absolutely needed? It's nice that someone can take their family to Hawaii or buy a new car every other year. Most people pray their car lasts until it's paid off. Which is why they buy foreign cars, they last longer. If I suddenly made $15/hr or $20/hr. Very little in my life would change. I could buy a car with confidence, and I might eat beef more often, that kind if thing. But my lifestyle would not skyrocket. I wouldn't spend all my money just because I can.

Couch Potato · Veteran Member

NYCOWIFE wrote:

I would much rather work say for a lesser amount per hour than have to search for another job.

I agree. If a company told you, "listen, you were making $27/hour but now you have to make $12/hour..." If you wanted to keep your job, you'd take it. Arguing could lose you your job as well. Don't agree with what management thinks you should make? They could replace you in a second. Don't want to work for $12 an hour? Betcha a lot of people in Niagara County would consider that to be a big pay increase and would love to do the job. Remember: there is always a better job out there and there is always someone willing to do your job.

Date: Mon Dec 5 11:21 PM, 2005

Anonymous wrote:

I made a mistake in saying he was embarrasing, i apologize. I stand by the rest of the post though. I believe that any able bodied (and if he works three jobs he is) can either learn a trade or go to school for a better job. There are plenty of truck driving jobs out there paying much more than $7. Nurses, nurses aides, LPN,s are all needed. There are jobs out there. Now if Delphi goes down, who knows what jobs will be around. Those workers though are standing up for all of us, saying, NO, we don't want to be like mexican or chinese workers, pay us fair! I think most of them realize that they will be getting a pay cut, but not to $10 an hour!

What skills or trades do the line workers at Delphi have? If their not happy with the pay cut than why don't they go to school for a trade?

Date: Fri Dec 9 3:31 PM, 2005

bump

Date: Mon Dec 12 11:48 AM, 2005

Listening to PC Tony right now on Dialog. The guy's a natural. Hey Scott, your station got the 1-2 PM slot available?

Im the slime · Novice

who will make a stand if not for the people that work for high wages

who is next to be taken down a peg the nurses the doctors dentists?

the paper is full of jobs that pay over 15 dollars an hour to start.

idiot jobs like truck drivers masonary laborers temp services to do piece work start at least 12-14 per hour.

a roofers job was just in the buffalo news for 21 an hour welder just out of training 19.50 an hour

but i guess that all those years working in the carbon industry he never had to do much more than his portion my father taught me more than 1 way to earn a living was it easy no.did it make me self sufficient yes.

light a candle don't curse the darkness