We reached a milestone today!

Date: Mon Apr 25 9:17 PM, 2005

We reached a milestone today!

Scott Leffler · Guru

Glad someone is paying attention.

Actually, we reached two milestones today. AlwaysWatching became the first user to cross the 100 post threshold. Go AW!

alwayswatching · Guru

So your not telling me I'm old?

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

you will miss President Bush when he moves on ... it will be up to history to judge if President Bush 2 or President Reagan did more for the future of our country ....

Date: Wed Apr 27 6:49 AM, 2005

quote:
Originally posted by: alwayswatching
"So your not telling me I'm old?"

Nah, not old, just verbose

Keep on truckin'

alwayswatching · Guru

quote:
Originally posted by: Anonymous
" Nah, not old, just verbose Keep on truckin'"

Without question!

Date: Thu Apr 28 9:45 PM, 2005

Mike of the mountain, You need to do some research. The night Reagan was elected, I remember my grandfather telling me that this country will go backwards. Before you go supporting either guy, let’s begin with Reagan - go back and look at topics such as lost jobs, inflation, the economy and the start of the GOP running all over the average citizen of this country. History will show the country stalled and went backwards under his administration. For our current brain trust in office, I don't believe we need to wait for the future. He’s destroying this country - stock market is a mess, the economy is a mess, we are losing jobs daily, we are in a war that we cannot win, and we are still losing lives just about every day - and if you have been paying attention things have worsened in the past few weeks again. I would have loved to see the average person investing his or hers social security last week with the condition the stock market. So please get off your ego trip and face the facts - both leaders have and are destroying this country.

jspeer · Guru

911 is why our economy is bad. Wake up. Clinton was no better. Him not having a hair on his ass to deal with the issues in the Middle East or in Korea have a lot to do with why we are in our current position. I don't agree with all of the war but I believe it is something that had to happen. It's better to fight away from the USA. How can you put a price on freedom? I find it hard to believe that you can blame the problems we have on George Bush. Maybe if Bill Clinton would have spent more time defending our country instead of sucking on tainted cigars then we wouldn't be at war now. Thank God 911 didn't happen on his watch. I'm sure Mike Moore would have made a movie to defend him though.

Scott Leffler · Guru

Jspeer,

Why is it some people (you for example) forgot how quickly how smoothly things ran under Clinton's watch? The economy was in good shape, we weren't at war with the rest of the world, and we weren't digging up the entire country looking for oil. But you continue thinking that somehow or another all that prosperity and good will toward men led to September 11th. And another thing - As Al Sharpton put it, Bozo the Clown could have been president after September 11th and we would have come together. Sharpton should have also noted that Bozo wouldn't have picked random countries to go to war with ... oh, sorry, they weren't random ... they were countries with oil facilities and that had pissed off Bozo Senior. Maybe if George spent more time getting lucky and less time invading other countries, we'd be in better shape. ALSO, the economy would have tanked without September 11th. W would have made sure of it.

Mindcrime · Guru

I heard Bush talking in front of the Small Business Association, saying that we, as a nation, "need to get on a path away from a fossil fuel economy." He continued by explaining that he had asked Congress for 2 Billion dollars over the next 10 years for his Coal Research Initiative.

Nice to know this is the man who holds the fate of a nation in his hands...

And a note on blaming the previous president for all the current problems: Some folks say that the current state of the union is Clinton's fault. We were attacked because Clinton was soft. Our economy is bad because Clinton ruined it. If that's true, then how can Bush effect change during his term? Wouldn't we have to wait until Mrs. Clinton's 2009 presidency to see if Bush did a good job or not? This means nothing Bush accomplishes from 2000-2008 will be to his credit. Not freeing Iraq, not securing our borders, not repairing social security. We'll be sure to thank Bill for all that instead.

-- Edited by Mindcrime at 08:04, 2005-04-30

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

president clinton stepped into a rising economy , left with a falling economy .... gutted the military and missed many chances to cut the head off the snake while the snake was still small . 9/11 was not the first attack against the usa, the attacks continued throughout the clinton presidency - he did nothing except put a cruise missile on to an empty chemical / drug factory . and sell / give the chinese some sensitive classified technology that they were otherwise incapable of coming up with on their own ...

the state department under bill clinton instituted the open door visa policy with the saudi s and even after the first trade center bombing and the embassy bombings and intel that showed alqueda involvment with the somalia debacle , the policies were not changed to tighten up security , that is a fact - most of the 9/11 participants were saudi nationals. invited in by the weak policies of bill clinton and his administration . (which have since been changed , the scenario could not be repeated today )

the policies of the current president have reversed a falling economy and now this economy is the best in the world , that is the world , this planet , as evidenced by the greatest amount of growth and the lowest unemployment - in regards to the energy / oil snafu that unfolds now , in the first term a deal was made with a russian oil company by our president and his administration to purchase all the oil that could be pumped into converted naval yards on the berring sea coast line , unfortunately the russian government became greedy or corrupt or stupid or part of each and screwed up the deal by taking over the oil company and jailing the ceo because of that needed infastruture was never finished , the oil sits in the ground ... the idea at the time was to increase production and defang the opec cartel by switching a large portion of our oil buying away to the russians ; it was a great idea showing a great amount of foresight and if implemented would have solved much or all of the energy woes we feel now . that said the current president has a few flaws , border security among them .

But he is not soft (weak/corrupt) he strikes hard at the body of the snake while searching for the heads - i dont think he cares who gets the credit for his achievments . but there is no way they can be attributed to bill clinton .

BUT - neither of them are doing or have done anything here in america to deal with radioactive waste dump sites or residue from fallout of nuclear weapons testing - americans are dieing of exposure here in america and unless this is addressed and solved americans will continue to die , needlessly . since my mom and uncle were two who died early from that that is what i am focusing on . the political stuff is fun , but preventing needless american death and suffering is more important . the passion expressed here could be directed at local , state , federal government elected people. if enough letters and emails hit their doorsteps some of them may pull their heads out of the sand and begin to solve the problems here in the usa .

Paper Tigress · Veteran Member

quote: Originally posted by: mike of the mountain
"president clinton stepped into a rising economy , left with a falling economy .... Really? Then explain this: http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=LN_cpsbref3

gutted the military and missed many chances to cut the head off the snake while the snake was still small .  Bush never mentioned terrorists or al quida once in any speech up to 9/11. He had over a year & a half to deal with them, and instead, decided to ignore the threat

9/11 was not the first attack against the usa,   the attacks continued throughout the clinton presidency - he did nothing except put a cruise missile on to an empty chemical / drug factory . and sell / give the chinese some sensitive classified technology that they were otherwise incapable of coming up with on their own ... You don't promote peace by bullying the rest of the world into submission, overhelming them with superior firepower and technology. You help them out.

the state department under bill clinton instituted the open door visa policy with the saudi s and even after the first trade center bombing and the embassy bombings and intel that showed alqueda involvment with the somalia debacle , the policies were not changed to tighten up security , that is a fact -       most of the 9/11 participants were saudi nationals. So we attacked Iraq...right...go on...

invited in by the weak policies of bill clinton and his administration .   (which have since been changed , the scenario could not be repeated today ) Why not? Devloping our complacency earlier than expected

the policies of the current president have reversed a falling economy and now this economy is the best in the world , that is the world , this planet , as evidenced by the greatest amount of growth and the lowest unemployment If you say so... http://www.academycomputerservice.com/economics/charts.htm

- in regards to the energy / oil snafu that unfolds now , in the first term a deal was made with a russian oil company by our president and his administration to purchase all the oil that could be pumped into converted naval yards on the berring sea coast line , unfortunately the russian government became greedy or corrupt or stupid or part of each and screwed up the deal by taking over the oil company and jailing the ceo because of that needed infastruture was never finished , the oil sits in the ground ... Hmmm, a country that jails it's corrupt, lying, greedy, criminal CEO's...What a crazy idea

the idea at the time was to increase production and defang the opec cartel by switching a large portion of our oil buying away to the russians ; it was a great idea showing a great amount of foresight and if implemented would have solved much or all of the energy woes we feel now .  What about the Coal Research Initiative?

that said the current president has a few flaws , border security among them .     But he is not soft (weak/corrupt)   he strikes hard at the body of the snake while searching for the heads -  There are no heads. Stop thinking of terrorism as some kind of serpent. It's more like a swarm of insects. Deadly as a whole, but damaging one is insignificant. You can't go to war against an ideal. That's why our 'War On Drugs' was so ineffectual. Just like our War On Cancer, War On AIDS, War On Poverty. We don't do anything about it, we just declare war on it.

i dont think he cares who gets the credit for his achievments . but there is no way they can be attributed to bill clinton. Then stop attributing all the negatives to Bill Clinton. Either the current situation is your doing, or your predecessor's. You can't eat all the dessert and leave the brussel sprouts for someone else.

I leave you with this thought: TheBushLegacy

-- Edited by Paper Tigress at 08:59, 2005-04-30

forgottenchild · Veteran Member

THE IMPACT

OF MILITARISM ON

THE ENVIRONMENT:

AN OVERVIEW OF DIRECT

AND INDIRECT EFFECTS

A research report written for

Physicians for Global Survival (Canada)

By Abeer Majeed

3.5.1 Domestic Law

At present, domestic legislation exercises the greatest jurisdiction over peacetime military

activities. However, in at least four states- Germany, Switzerland, UK, and Serbia/Montenegro,

the military sector is explicitly exempt in part or in whole from domestic environmental law

(Westing 2000).

In the United States, the Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability

Act (CERCLA or Superfund) allows the President to exempt the Department of Defense from

the requirements under CERCLA if it is necessary to protect national security interest. The

Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA) also includes a ‘national security’ exemption

clause (Werner 1993). Furthermore, the Pentagon, backed by the current Bush administration,

has been seeking to exempt itself from other federal environmental protection laws. In May

2003, the House Resources Committee approved a bill granting the Pentagon broad exemption

from the Endangered Species Act (ESA) and the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA)

Sure am glag this guy's on our side...........not!

Mindcrime · Guru

The estimated population of the United States is 295,997,676
so each citizen's share of this debt is $26,366.31.

Dang...Guess I better pay that right away, y'know, before it gets higher.

I'll just send 'em a Black & Decker circular saw, tell 'em to keep the change.

alwayswatching · Guru

Does anyone know the individual share before he took office? I would bet that it was a lot lower.

Mindcrime · Guru

Going by the graphs provided on that site, by the end of Clinton's term, where it levels off, our National Debt was close to 5.5 Trillion. That makes each individual's share around $18,300. Sill incredibly high, but over a third less than the debt during Bush's term. That far exceeds the steady rise we've shown since the 40's.

kspeer · Senior Member

I hate politics.

-- Edited by kspeer at 13:20, 2005-05-01

Date: Sun May 1 12:22 PM, 2005

MC, Clinton wasn't fighting a war. War's not cheap. President Bush came in and had to fix 8 years of a spineless president. What would you say Clinton's legacy would be? A stained dress? Giving China mid range nukes? Or maybe that he never inhaled? Lets just say every President has had flaws. Clinton didn't have to make hard decisions during his term. I wish 911 would have happened during his watch. Then people would've seen him for the phoney he was. You can tell a lot about a man when you see how they handle pressure. The difference between Bush and Clinton is Bush had the balls to stand up and do something and not push the fight off until another day.

jspeer · Guru

Scott, Clinton's whole presidency was full of scandals. He couldn't stay out of court or interns pants. His 2 terms had a lot to do with 9-11. He made our country's militarily weaker. He also made a joke of his marriage. Tell me what do you and Democrats value? It seems like most Dem's stand for what is popular that day.

Mindcrime · Guru

Having an inflated military would not have stopped 9/11, or the countless bombings. If the military hadn't been streamlined, the cost of toilet seats would have gone from $400 to $600 each. Even after Clinton cut military spending, we still had the best equipped, best trained fighting force in the world.

Yes, Clinton smoked pot, liked sex, and was a peacemaker. Maybe that's why he made a good president. Most of the country was just like him. He was an average American. How many people in this country between 30 and 60 never tried drugs? How many of those people never cheated on their partners or lusted after an intern? You'll find the majority of people, both Republican and Democrat guilty of the same transgressions as Clinton. He was a human being. Not a political stiff afraid to indulge in anything, not afraid to admit his humanity. Bush won't own up to his boozing days or his flagrant cocaine use. Face it, most politicians are robots, scared to death of offending someone or doing anything that might be considered unfavorable. As a result, we have cowards for leaders.

Now, I'm not condoning infidelity or illegal drug use, but I judge a system by its' results. Eight years of Clinton was good for the country. More jobs, less crime, budget surplus, and favorable international relations. His behavior wasn't spic-n-span, but he took care of matters that really count. Bush has us destroying the environment, quagmired in war, hopelessly in debt, and turning American culture into an evangelical nightmare. Any objective observer must admit, these are not good results, and certainly not worthy of an American President.

You speak of values. Values are personal traits, something that guides your decisions and behavior. Your values are not something to be imposed on everyone else.

-- Edited by Mindcrime at 15:54, 2005-05-01

Date: Sun May 1 6:01 PM, 2005

MC, so what you’re saying is that in less than a year after his election Bush caused 911. That's BULL S@#%! The USA has always been hated. It's nothing new. Everyone is jealous of what we have. I'm glad Bush is an aggressive President. In a post 9-11 world we need a President who has balls. He may not always be right but at least he takes a side. Do you think Bill Clinton could have done better? I think if Clinton was in office 9-11 would have been just the beginning. If it was me I wouldn't have put troops in Iraq. I would've just bomb until nothing was left standing. I guess that's why I'm not President.

jspeer · Guru

MC, I wasn't signed in for that post. Sorry

Mindcrime · Guru

I wouldn't say that Bush's policies in general caused 9/11. (Unless you subscribe to the idea that he was a party to planning and orchestrating the whole thing.)

The World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. al Quida didn't hit the U.S. on our own soil for another 8 years. We are dealing with very patient people. To say we are any safer because Bush is rattling the sabre overseas is ridiculous. Just think about this: The people we are waging war on are very prideful concerning the sanctity of their home. Now it is overrun with our military presence, making changes, killing people, the usual. We are now facing fanatics who, three years ago, only hated us enough to hijack planes and fly them into prominent targets. Imagine how they like us now...

And one more thing, this is not a "post 9/11 world." It's the same world it's always been. Middle easterners have hated us for a century or more, ever since we've been poking our nose in their business. Not long after 9/11, a journalist whose name escapes me said something painfully realistic: "The world did not change because of 9/11, we just joined it."

alwayswatching · Guru

911 would have happened know matter who was sitting in the oval office. These things take years to pull off. The national debt, however, can be placed right smack on the head of our camander and chief. This country spent years in an econonic decline, and was making a strong steady recovery. That all changed when our current leader was/wasn't elected. Look at the numbers.

jspeer · Guru

Always, look at the stock market after 9-11. The national debt would have happened even if Gore was or wasn't elected. Don't post just to increase your post numbers. You must be a Mike Moore fan. You pick and choose your facts just like him.