Lockport Journal's opinion or is it personal?

KevinIrish · Member

Lockport Journal's opinion or is it personal?

Scott Leffler · Guru

quote:
Originally posted by: KevinIrish
" http://lockportjournal.com/story.asp?id=1774 This "editorial" is so biased against firefighters that anyone who reads it can see that it is most likely based on personal feelings the Lockport Journal has towards firefighters.

Kevin,

Funny that the US&J can't have an opinion about how to better operated the LFD, but you're supremely qualified to tell them how to write an editorial.

Interestingly, an editorial is an article filled with opinion, conjecture and bias ... based on fact. When I read the US&J editorial, I found it was just that. You're just upset that the LFD can't bully the US&J and sue them into what you want, huh?

Look, I have a great deal of empathy for the downtrodden. And I want to right what's wrong in the world. Unfortunately for your POV, the fire department don't fit into either of those categories.

Way to stack the comments page of the US&J. Looks like everyone in Lockport wants you guys to get more firefighters. Again ... it LOOKS like everyone in Lockport wants you guys to get more firefigters.

Their point on the rescue calls was completely lost on you, apparently. I think the point is that OTHER places have ambulance services to handle rescue calls and a fire department to handle fires. I'm betting if we removed the burden of rescue calls from LFD and hired a private contractor to do rescue calls, the response time would be just as quick ... and for less money. Then restructure the fire department into a "paid" and "volunteer" category. Paid drivers and volunteer firemen (and women). Since you guys all love Lockport so much and are only concerned with public safety, I'm sure you'd take the volunteer posts and let other - less generous people - take the paid driver positions. Throw in central dispatch and we've saved a bundle while maintaining public safety.

I mean you no animosity here, Kev, but you need to at least thoroughly read and understand the editorial before bashing the US&J. Don't get me wrong here, I LOVE US&J bashing ... it's just more fun when they're wrong. And they weren't wrong on this one.

Allow me to summarize the editorial, for those who like crib notes:

Negotiations are on hold since the LFD accused Tucker of making back-room deals and Tucker said let's do everything EVERYTHING out in the open.

LPFFA's solution to every problem in the city is to hire more firemen.

Council wanted to lower minimum staffing at LFD. Tucker persuaded them to wait. Meanwhile LPFFA filed a complaint about central dispatch (an idea that could save money while allowing minimum staffing to stay the same, btw) basically putting a dagger in Tucker's back.

The city handles more ambulance calls than fire calls ... and there's more firefighters on duty than police patrolling at any given time. How weird is that?

This problem isn't going to disappear.

Although LPFFA insulted the mayor, he needs to forget the "behind closed doors" deal and get back to working with the fire department.

So there you go. Scott Leffler's abridged editorial from the US&J.

Personally, I agree with a lot of it.

Now go ahead and get your minions to attack me.

alwayswatching · Guru

I'm going to weight in with my 2 cents on this one. For the record I am not a LPFD minion, and wish to attack know one. I don't believe it is legal to negotiate a public employees contract in public. I think Mayor Mike (no relation to Mayor Julie) is grandstanding here. When it comes time for contract talks at Delphi, will he want those negotiations held in public? A side note: the current contract at Delphi is what will close the doors to the Lockport facility. But that is a private contract not available under FOIL.

I have lived both in the town and city of Lockport, and unfortunately had the need to call on both fire departments. While living in a large apartment complex in the town, we had an electral short caused by a lighting strike. If you have ever watched how fast current can travel throught walls, you would want a fast response. Our response time from South Lockport was 14 minutes. By the time they arrived a helpful neighbor knew enough to shut down our main breaker. That never occured to us because we were preoccupied with our son, pets and belongings. Had it not been for the neighbor we would have been fully engufed in flames by the time ths volunteers arrived.

Several years later we were involved in a serious auto accident. I am told LPFD was site in less than 2 minutes. They called for mutual assistance from south lockport and hazmat. I was in the emergency room being treated long before mutal aid arrived. While this might have been classified a rescue call, it was much more. Those few minutes could have cost me my life. These same city employees made a point to stop by my house, on thier own time, to see how I was recovering.

I understand the need to cut costs, but that should never be at the expense of safety. Both sides need to sit down a find the best way to make this work. No more grand standing on both sides. Just my 2 cents.

KevinIrish · Member

-- Edited by KevinIrish at 07:12, 2005-06-01

Scott Leffler · Guru

But since you've already stated that cost is no consequence, why not get satellite fire stations all over the city to cut the response time even more?

The answer to every argument is ... but we've got great response times. I don't disagree with that ... but that doesn't permit the department to drain the general fund and get its every wish.

I think Mayor Mike IS grandstanding ... and good for him. Despite all the union's whining, no one has really stood up to them.

Again, Kevin ... what is it you want? More men. Always more men. Status quo plus. And anyone who has an opinion that differs obviously hates the fire department.

How many mayors in a row have hated the fire department? At some point, you've got to think that maybe it's not the mayor. Maybe its the fire department.

Thanks for posting the response times for every department in Niagara County. Some interesting stuff. But the US&J's point was that despite volunteer companies (all are volunteer or part-volunteer except NF, right?) having higher response times, none of the other communities have burned to the ground. I think that's a fact.

And you did criticize how they wrote their editorial ... "opinion or is it personal?"

What exactly does the Union-Sun have to be personal about?

Look, you're welcome to criticize ... and this is the perfect place to do it. I just think that we need to explore other ways to save money.

I've said before and I'll say again, I wouldn't do your job for what you make ... but that's why I'm not doing your job. That doesn't invalidate my (or anyone elses) opinion.

KevinIrish · Member

-- Edited by KevinIrish at 07:13, 2005-06-01

alwayswatching · Guru

Kevin, I tried to support the need for LPFD, but you make it hard to defend you. Grow up and act like the professional you claim to be. And please stop the grand standing.

KevinIrish · Member

.

-- Edited by KevinIrish at 07:15, 2005-06-01

alwayswatching · Guru

quote:
Originally posted by: KevinIrish
"I am hardly grandstanding, I am defending my job by stating the truth and will continue to do so. Thanks for your support."

No your not, your asking for more help to do your job. It almost looks like you are trying to negotiate in public. That is skating on very thin ice, The mayor can't do it and neither can you. You are a public employee, this is the job you picked. Public criticism comes with the territory, especially at budget or contract time. Face it, it doesn't matter how well you do your job, the taxpayers want relief. That my friend should cause you to behave with a bit more humility when speaking publicly.

KevinIrish · Member

-- Edited by KevinIrish at 07:14, 2005-06-01

Date: Tue May 31 4:05 PM, 2005

RE: RE: Lockport Journal's opinion or is it person

alwayswatching · Guru

RE: Lockport Journal's opinion or is it personal?

kspeer · Senior Member

I agree with Mr. Irish on this issue. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something that you feel strongly about, and you want so bad to educate the masses that you feel like you're yelling through the keyboard. Unfortunately, you can't convince everyone that professional is better than vollie. They will only find out at the worst time. When they get into an accident, have a heart attack, or their home burns to the ground.

I'm sure most people have heard the term "basement savers". Maybe the city guys are doing their job too well. You don't hear about too many total loss fires in the city.

-- Edited by kspeer at 23:24, 2005-05-31

Scott Leffler · Guru

kspeer wrote:

I agree with Mr. Irish on this issue. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something that you feel strongly about, and you want so bad to educate the masses that you feel like you're yelling through the keyboard. Unfortunately, you can't convince everyone that professional is better than vollie. They will only find out at the worst time. When they get into an accident, have a heart attack, or their home burns to the ground.

I'm sure most people have heard the term "basement savers". Maybe the city guys are doing their job too well. You don't hear about too many total loss fires in the city.-- Edited by kspeer at 23:24, 2005-05-31

I don't have a problem with Kevin's point of view either. My main problem is the tactic of not liking what the US&J said (despite the fact that it's fact based), so you attack their point of view. I've just seen that way too much from LFD. If you're stance isn't their stance it's because you hate them and are out to get them. I just think it's strange that there's this big conspiracy against the fire department and only me, you and the fire department didn't get the memo about it. After a while you've got to conclude that maybe it's not a conspiracy. Maybe people don't like the "shouting through the keyboard" tactic. Maybe people want civilized debate ... not gang warfare. And for the record ... Kevin still has the best Avatar.

meghski · Member

Scott,
The editorial that this whole forum is about has some fact in it, there is a lot that is not factual.

The fact that the council thinks 10 man minimum is high is true. THEY think its high. Even though 3 years ago this was THEIR plan to alleviate a problem THEY created by dropping manning to 9 men. What they need to do is go back 12-15 years ago when the council at that time hired a company to do an assessment of the fire department needs and staffing. It was determined by this company that a former council hired, that a city with this fire load, needs 17 men per shift. Boy imagine asking for that number.

While the mayor formed this committee to look into restructuring, no formal proposals have been made,no matter what anyone has been told. We have been asked to look into 2 ideas, 24 hour shifts and 8 hour shifts, has the other half looked into these proposals. We have. My personal opinion, 24 hours could work, but its not without its cost to both sides. The 8 hour shift will never work. The thought that 8 hour shifts 5 days per week, leaves one glaring problem, What happens on the weekends? Those are the 2 "ideas" that have been talked about in the paper.

But I do agree with the last statement in the paper, enough of the hurt feelings, let's get back to work. This department is the 4th highest revenue generator in the city. We should be looking to be more like Batavia and expand those revenue streams. Yes more would have to be hired, but that would be more that offset by the income generated.

Tibazasa · Novice

As the person who bills for ambulance service in the City, I need to put a new perspective here on the rescue calls and the revenue that is generated. The City currently runs 2 paramedic level ambulances. Our transport rates are the LOWEST in the area. For an ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT transport the City charges $531.00. The same service provided by Twin City Ambulance costs $680.00, Rural Metro charges $699.00 and the City of Batavia charges $544.50. So, Scott, your statement that bringing in a private contractor to handle rescue calls more quickly and cheaper is not factual. It will most certainly not be "cheaper" for the patient. Co-pays are generally configured as a percentage of the total charges, so as rates get higher, so do patient co-pays. Also, the "vollies" contract with an ALS service to provide advanced level care. The town(s) PAY for that contact; ie. US&J 10/22/2004 - Town of Lockport budgets payment of $939,900.00 to Fire Districts and $808,065 for basic ambulance service, not including the contract entered into with Rural Metro for advanced care calls) The City would also have to pay dearly to have a private ambulance company come in to take over. Twin City just severed ties with the Town. I'm sure it is because they could not bring in enough money to stay. (the rates quoted above are based on 2003 research), so I'm sure the private companies have increased by now. Quicker, doubt it. A private company will have one, maybe two ambulances to service the City and Town of Lockport. Response time would suffer. Tell me honestly, if your child is struck by a car, choking, having a seizure, etc. How long do you want to wait? As far as the US&J is concerned, what happened to the days where the local paper actually supported it's public safety folks? When I was a kid, they had pages dedicated to a photo and brief bio of all the firefighters and police officers. Now it seems that the US&J has to invent news to try and stir the pot. This is not a NEWS paper, it's a tabloid. Which, by the way, is why I have not subscribed in quite a while.

pbrady · Novice

I think the point is that OTHER places have ambulance services to handle rescue calls and a fire department to handle fires. I'm betting if we removed the burden of rescue calls from LFD and hired a private contractor to do rescue calls, the response time would be just as quick ... and for less money. Then restructure the fire department into a "paid" and "volunteer" category. Paid drivers and volunteer firemen (and women). Since you guys all love Lockport so much and are only concerned with public safety, I'm sure you'd take the volunteer posts and let other - less generous people - take the paid driver positions. Throw in central dispatch and we've saved a bundle while maintaining public safety.

Scott,

while not a minion of Kevin's, I am a fellow firefighter and a friend. Your assesment of his misconstruing the true content of the US&J editoral is partiallty true. His passion for trying to correct what he considers a wrong could be clouding his judgement of the statement issued by the editorial board. However your above solution to the problem is missing some facts.

The other places that do not have ambulance coverage (NF,NT, Buffalo to name a few)must by law respond to any call of emergency (911 calls). This of course means that they are sending fire TRUCKS to render first aid until the arrival of the commercial ambulance service. Could be two minutes or 20 minutes depending on the proximity of the responding ambulance When the commercial ambulance does arrive it is staffed by two people. What happens next depends on the location, size, and severity of the condition of the patient. Most often the FD assists with some patient care and moving the patient and equipment to the ambulance. If it is a serious situation a firefighter may ride in the ambulance to assist in rendering aid to the patient, while the fire truck follows behind to pick up the firefighter that is riding in the ambulance.

In this type of system, the commercial service bills the patient for it's services and for costs incurred during the incident. (personnel,supplies, equipment, mileage,etc.) The responding FD gets no remittance for services rendered.Going to this tiered system of response provides for a SLOWER response time for the ambulance to get on scene and a longer dwell time on-scene. Making the time to definitive care (the emergency department) longer and lowers the likelihood of a successful patient outcome. Still want to wager your life or those of your loved ones on this system? Remeber LFD ambulances contributed over $750,000k back to the general fund last year.

The largest problem with your suggestion of combining departments is this. PEOPLE!!! Where are you drawing the people to staff a city volunteer department from? The surrounding volunteer agencies already draw some of thier members from city residents, and they still struggle to maintain adequate numbers of personnel. Unless there is an untapped pool of resources standing by for just this situation, how do you suggest a newly formed volunteer company recruit and retain trained personnel? Who is purchasing thier needed equipment and supplies?

Centrel dispatch, well if the powers that be in the city would go down to the NCSD and start asking for Lockport's share of the e-911 monies coming in for each PSAP center in this county maybe it would offset some of the financial burden on it's taxpayers. After all this is the money you and I are being taxed on our cell phone bill that is supposed to help defray the increased costs of equipment and personnel needed to recieve those calls. Lockport gets $0 dollars of this money.

So Scott forgive Kevin for not seeing the forest through the trees on this matter. Maybe we are shouting and whining to much for our own good. But standing idly by while the politicians make threats and untrue accusations against you and your livelihood is not something people are prone to taking lightly.

jspeer · Guru

I thought you Liberals were for the American worker, Scott? How much more American can you get? You shouldn't let your friendship with local politicians cloud your views. How does it work...he who goes on the Leffler show gets my backing? I hope this is not true. Before you say response times wouldn't change and building wouldn't burn to the ground if they went Vollie, tell us where did you get your facts to make your opinion? It's just a simple question not an attack. Maybe if you explained yourself the people would better understand why you are so one sided on this. I'm just sad to see that you chased a Knowledgable member off your site.

kspeer · Senior Member

"Since you guys all love Lockport so much and are only concerned with public safety, I'm sure you'd take the volunteer posts and let other - less generous people - take the paid driver positions." - originally posted by Scott Leffler

They won't be able to volunteer since they will need to get another job to support their families. So they will either be working for Rural Metro a ton of hours and have no time, or they will have moved away to Arizona or SC where they are hiring professionals. And as far as Rural Metro being able to cover all the calls for this area, there are examples everyday on the scanner where people wait and wait and wait for them. Yesterday, a 70 year old woman in Hartland was experiencing general weakness and shortness of breath. Stroke? Heart attack? Could be....don't know, but I do know that she waited over 25 minutes for Rural Metro, and there were NO EMT's on scene in the meantime. Not even a basic. How's that for care? And to top it off she will now get a bill for around $600 from Metro for that fantastic service. Medicare and Blue Cross do not cover it.

Scott, that is just one example from yesterday. It happens everyday. Right now there is one fly car (which doesn't transport) and one ambulance from Metro that covers all of Eastern Niagara County. That's 2 paramedics for an awful lot of people. There are very few volunteer paramedics, and the one's that do volunteer in their free time, don't have much free time. It takes about 4 years to become a paramedic. That's if you were to go straight through. I only know of one person doing that. Why would someone put that much time and effort and schooling just to volunteer? PBrady is right about the biggest problem facing volunteers - PEOPLE. That's why you see "accepting new members" on most of the signs.

kspeer · Senior Member

"Way to stack the comments page of the US&J. Looks like everyone in Lockport wants you guys to get more firefighters. Again ... it LOOKS like everyone in Lockport wants you guys to get more firefigters." - posted by Scott Leffler

Hey, I wrote one of those comments, and I'm not a fireman.

Scott Leffler · Guru

kspeer wrote:

Hey, I wrote one of those comments, and I'm not a fireman.

No, Kels. You're one of the afformentioned "minions."

Scott Leffler · Guru

jspeer wrote:

I thought you Liberals were for the American worker, Scott? How much more American can you get? You shouldn't let your friendship with local politicians cloud your views. How does it work...he who goes on the Leffler show gets my backing? I hope this is not true. Before you say response times wouldn't change and building wouldn't burn to the ground if they went Vollie, tell us where did you get your facts to make your opinion? It's just a simple question not an attack. Maybe if you explained yourself the people would better understand why you are so one sided on this. I'm just sad to see that you chased a Knowledgable member off your site.

This is nearly offensive, Joe. If you think that I only have people on the show that agree with me or that I agree with, maybe you should take a look at the past guests page. Or listen to the podcasts. Frankly, very few of my guests ARE of the same opinion as yours truly on most issues. In fact, a Mr Lupo and a Mr Pratt have an open invitation to be guests on my show. Always have. Always will. I am for the American worker, BTW. I want to save them some money. As for explaining myself, I have seen first-hand the way the LFD acts politically. It's just wrong. They may do a good service when they're on their trucks, but when they're not, they're political hacks and I see them for that. And finally, who is it that I chased away? I am simply presenting my point of view ... if someone can't handle that, they should check out another web site and post their opinion there.

kspeer · Senior Member

"I want to save them some money." - posted by Scott re: the american worker

The question is at what cost? Your families safety?

Scott Leffler · Guru

kspeer wrote:

"I want to save them some money." - posted by Scott re: the american worker

The question is at what cost? Your families safety?

I'll return to my earlier question ... if money's no object, why not build satellite stations around the city and hire twice as many firefighters to decrease response times even more? Fact of the matter is, money is an object. Taxes keep going up and we need to find a way to stop the bleeding. No department is off limits. IMHO.

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

What benefit will I receive if Lockport goes to a volunteer fire dept. ?

Will my city tax go down?

I have yet to see in print the expected end result should the mayor succeed in his crusade against the fire dept.