Lockport Journal's opinion or is it personal?

Scott Leffler · Guru

RE: Lockport Journal's opinion or is it personal?

kspeer · Senior Member

"Taxes keep going up and we need to find a way to stop the bleeding. No department is off limits. IMHO." - posted by Scott

Then why isn't the common council looking at cuts anywhere else but the fire dept.? They generate $, and could make more if they were allowed to follow Batavia's lead and farm out their ALS services. And yes, that would mean hiring....but in the long run, the big picture, the ends would justify the means.

Scott Leffler · Guru

kspeer wrote: Then why isn't the common council looking at cuts anywhere else but the fire dept.?

Let me begin by saying that I don't know for certain that the CC IS looking elsewhere ... but I think it's also highly speculative on your part to assume that they aren't. Don't get me wrong here, the Council is a flock of fools ... but that doesn't mean they aren't looking elsewhere. I'm sure LFD would love you to believe that they're the only ones being picked on. I'd bet otherwise.

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

Scott,

With the majority of people saying{ "You want a volunteer fire department? Your house will burn down and your kids will die." (summarized Scott Leffler version).}

I don’t see any assurances from the city that a volunteer unit won’t happen.

I think your satellite stations comment is just as over exaggerated & a little silly.

If money weren’t an object I’d live on my own private island & hire a personal emergency unit to live in one of my cabanas.

Before we start cutting positions in the departments that actually make a difference in this city, perhaps we should look at the city positions that are filled with slackers.

Let me rephrase my question.

If the city does lay off firemen, will my taxes go down?

I don’t think they will.

If it is true the OT for the fire dept. has gone down then why do my taxes keep going up?

I’m actually more concerned with why my water bill keeps rising & my school taxes are twice my city tax.

Paper Tigress · Veteran Member

Maybe it's time we live within our means

kspeer · Senior Member

Scott Leffler wrote:

Let me begin by saying that I don't know for certain that the CC IS looking elsewhere ... but I think it's also highly speculative on your part to assume that they aren't.

OK, then wouldn't it be in the CC's best interest to let the people know what they are planning regarding all city departments, and possibly get the FD off their backs?

Date: Wed Jun 1 5:14 PM, 2005

To get things back on track, this is not a fight about career or volunteer, but don't think the council hasn't looked at the idea. This is really about a couple of things. 1.) making sure the mistake of lowering manpower doesn't repeat itself. (see Delphi incident), and 2) making sure everyone is safe. Not only the public, but us firefighters as well. And unless you've actually fought a fire, you don't understand how labor intensive such an event is. Spend 10 minutes in a burning building dragging a hose, while looking for possible victims, attacking the fire, while others ventilate so you don't burn to death from super heated steam and smoke, then you'll understand what its like to do a 4 hours' work in 10 minutes.

Date: Thu Jun 2 6:59 AM, 2005

why is it firefighters always play the guilt card when they are attacked or questioned? it's not like we don't appreciate what you do, but don't try to make us feel bad because of your career choice. you get what we can afford to give you. just do your job with what you have.

you think the soldiers at valley forge whined about the quality of blankets they got, or the scraps of food they were rationed? no, they accepted their hardships like men, did their jobs, and still kicked englands' @$$.

if ya can't take "the heat," go be a toll collector, or a streetsweeper. otherwise, clam up. we're bored with your whining.

Nitrogen_Widget · Senior Member

Anonymous wrote:

you think the soldiers at valley forge whined about the quality of blankets they got, or the scraps of food they were rationed? no, they accepted their hardships like men, did their jobs, and still kicked englands' @$$.

We ate the blankets when food was scarce with nary a complaint, that is true.

It was those damn pine cones we had to use to wipe our backsides when we ran out of giant q-tips that was the pain in the ass.

I remember it just like it was yesterday.

Wad963 · Member

Why is it whenever us firefighters try to defend our livelihoods, our safety and the public's safety we are whiners. Let's remember all we are asking is that we continue to work with a 10 man minimum, nothing more then we have had for well over 10 years. We have documented reasons for this. We didn't make this number up out of thin air. It is based on National Fire Protection Association and OSHA recomendations and requirements. The city managers have decided that the best way to do this over the last three years was with overtime, now that is a problem for some reason. I say that because the city is paying less now than they were three years ago when we had 8 more firefighters. If we didn't need 10 men, why did the city agree to a supplamental agreement giving us 10 men... because when they lowered our manning to 9, it didn't work. Now with elections coming they have decided that overtime is a problem and they need to solve the problem before November. This has led to thier threats to layoff and bring in volunteers. They have refused to hire or implement our cost savings ideas. They have only implemented one of a few revenue generating ideas. Yet they say we won't work with them. They have hired in other departments but steadfastly refuse to consider it for ours. The only solution they want to hear is that we can work with less men and anything else is not working with them. Anonymous states we should stop whining and do our jobs...we do, every hour of every day we don't complain, we defend when attacked as I think anyone should.

jspeer · Guru

"if ya can't take "the heat," go be a toll collector, or a streetsweeper. otherwise, clam up. we're bored with your whining".

For your info tolls just went up! And the workers make more money than a firemen for less work.

Scott Leffler · Guru

jspeer wrote:

For your info tolls just went up! And the workers make more money than a firemen for less work.

I think that was the writer's point.

pbrady · Novice

Scott Leffler wrote:

Nitro (et al), I don't see any proposal (by Tucker or anyone else) to go to a volunteer department. What I've seen so far is efforts to reduce minimum staffing levels and have centralized dispatch. You have something from the pols that says "let's go volunteer," I'd love to break it on WLVL. It seems like we go in circles cause no one can answer the questions I'm asking. Maybe that makes me bad. Maybe it just makes me a bad Democrat (or liberal as JSpeer wrote). I think it just makes me inquisitive. I'm not trying to drive a wedge here. Just get answers. But those without answers keep going back to: "You want a volunteer fire department? Your house will burn down and your kids will die." (summarized Scott Leffler version). Stop giving me over-exaggerated scenarios and deal with the question at hand, which I will repeat ... If money is no object, why aren't we proposing satellite stations to further decrease response times while increasing staffing and taxes. So far I'm the only person to answer it ... and the answer is simple: Money is an object. At least for me it is.

Scott,

The volunteer/commercial ambulance idea was your suggestion on this board. The answer to that idea, provided in my last post does not state what you suggest in your Lefflerized summary as written above. My post was honestly and factually the truth to what you had suggested as a solution to the issue. If it seems overexaggerated to you, check out my facts and prove me wrong. I would happily apologize for any misstatement I made on the matter.

In regards to your other question, you are correct in your statement that money is the object. The need for more fire stations is moot, as the response time numbers already speak for themselves (and no one else has mentioned that as an option, could be construed as an overexaggeration of needs) Hiring more people? Well I do not want to get into something approximating negotiating in the public. So let me ask this, where would the monies saved by eliminating more positions in the FD or city-wide for that matter go? No one has promised a tax cut if there are positions eliminated have they? Has there been serious talk of an increase in taxes because the city has to fill vacant positions, or has it just been suggested and then left to conjecture? So money being the object, where are these "cost savings" going anyway?

I guess this could be construed as more whining from another firefighter. But if you can provide some type of substansive answers for my questions, I think that it would help to answer yours. After all, this had never been about the creation of new positions in the budget it's been about filling the ones that were left vacant and replaced by the paying of overtime to continue a deparment's ability to provide services.

SCBan · Member

One answer would be to expand and sell the LFD's services, read below:

"In Myrtle Beach, we've made a commitment to excellence in the level of our fire protection. That means keeping pace with rapid growth in our community. Our last ISO PPC survey helped us see where we were and where we needed to go. In a time of tight budgets, we were still able to add fire stations and staffing, and the PPC program helped us justify those expenses.

"Since then, we've already identified areas where more protection is needed. So our future plans call for adding three new stations to meet the demand. ISO helped us pinpoint how these investments should help reduce insurance costs. Because of the insurance savings, the improvements will pay for themselves. Everybody wins — the fire department, the businessowners, and the residents.

"Myrtle Beach has already annexed several surrounding communities. We use our Public Protection Classification as a tool to sell the benefits of our service in the annexed area. We can point to our achievements as a department and the level of service we offer — as well as the potential savings on insurance premiums.

"We've worked extremely hard to earn our PPC rating, and I believe it was worth the effort. We're working even harder to maintain it. Through it all, it's been a great experience to deal with the ISO field representatives. I recommend that other chiefs contact ISO if they want help in further improving their operations."

Alvin Payne
Fire Chief
Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

-- Edited by SCBan at 15:05, 2005-06-02

Date: Fri Jun 3 4:26 AM, 2005

These firemen are just so funny. I love that graphic animation. Got gas?
_____________
James Nufbagel

SCBan · Member

From 1986 to 2002, more than 4,000 people died in fires with response times greater than six minutes. Factors, such as the mobility of residents, make it difficult to establish precise relations between response time and probability of death. But the potential for saving lives can be gleaned from data on property damage. Roughly $1 billion annually in house fire damages could have been averted if firefighters had responded within the six-minute window.

Some municipal managers and residents fear the certainty of property-tax increases more than they do the possibility of deadly blazes. A mother and her two young daughters perished in a 2001 house fire in Ipswich. Mass.. Only three firefighters were covering the town of 33 square miles. A consultant had warned of understaffing, but nothing was done before the tragedy -- and nothing has been done since.

-- Edited by SCBan at 18:06, 2005-06-03

Date: Fri Jun 3 6:01 PM, 2005

Wad963 wrote:

Why is it whenever us firefighters try to defend our livelihoods, our safety and the public's safety we are whiners. Let's remember all we are asking is that we continue to work with a 10 man minimum, nothing more then we have had for well over 10 years. We have documented reasons for this. We didn't make this number up out of thin air. It is based on National Fire Protection Association and OSHA recomendations and requirements. The city managers have decided that the best way to do this over the last three years was with overtime, now that is a problem for some reason. I say that because the city is paying less now than they were three years ago when we had 8 more firefighters. If we didn't need 10 men, why did the city agree to a supplamental agreement giving us 10 men... because when they lowered our manning to 9, it didn't work. Now with elections coming they have decided that overtime is a problem and they need to solve the problem before November. This has led to thier threats to layoff and bring in volunteers. They have refused to hire or implement our cost savings ideas. They have only implemented one of a few revenue generating ideas. Yet they say we won't work with them. They have hired in other departments but steadfastly refuse to consider it for ours. The only solution they want to hear is that we can work with less men and anything else is not working with them. Anonymous states we should stop whining and do our jobs...we do, every hour of every day we don't complain, we defend when attacked as I think anyone should.

You are so right!we take away what saves lives.We thank you for what you do.

SCBan · Member

Growth and Speed of Fire

The following is a timeline of an actual 2-story house fire as studied by the Nation Fire Protection agency(NFPA). It will show you just how fast fire spreads:

• :30 Fire ignites and grows rapidly.

• 1:04 From first flame, fire spreads and smoke begins to fill room.

• 1:35 Smoke layer descends rapidly, temperature exceeds 190°F.

• 1:50 Smoke detector at foot of stairs alarms. Still time to get out.

• 2:30 Temperature above couch over 400°F.

• 2:42 The average time it took the Lockport F.D. to get to any emergency in 2004.

• 2:48 Smoke pours into other rooms.

• 3:03 Temperature three feet above floor in room of origin is over 500°F. (No one could survive.)

• 3:20 Upstairs hall filled with smoke - Escape more difficult.

• 3:41 FLASHOVER - Energy in room of origin ignites everything. Temperature is 1400°F.

• 3:50 Two minutes after smoke detectors sounds, 2nd exit is only way out.

• 4:33 Flames just now visible from exterior of house - first evidence of fire from outside.

• 4:50 AT THIS POINT, RESCUE IS VERY UNLIKELY

• 6:00+ The average response times for most Niagara County Volunteer Fire Companies and 65% of all fire departments nationwide.

-- Edited by SCBan at 21:18, 2005-06-03

alwayswatching · Guru

SCBan wrote:

From 1986 to 2002, more than 4,000 people died in fires with response times greater than six minutes. Factors, such as the mobility of residents, make it difficult to establish precise relations between response time and probability of death. But the potential for saving lives can be gleaned from data on property damage. Roughly $1 billion annually in house fire damages could have been averted if firefighters had responded within the six-minute window. Some municipal managers and residents fear the certainty of property-tax increases more than they do the possibility of deadly blazes. A mother and her two young daughters perished in a 2001 house fire in Ipswich. Mass.. Only three firefighters were covering the town of 33 square miles. A consultant had warned of understaffing, but nothing was done before the tragedy -- and nothing has been done since. -- Edited by SCBan at 18:06, 2005-06-03

While I can understand why a South Carolina Fire Fighter would defend his own, you are comparing apples to oranges here. First you live in a rapidly expanding community, ours is progressivly declining in both population and industry. In a nut shell that means our tax base is shrinking. You can't make a valid comparison between the two communities. Second is the amount of taxes you pay for school, county and state. Yours are roughly one third of what we pay.

No one wants to see the amount of Fire Fighters reduced because we have to many. The reality is that in this part of New York State we sometimes have to chose between services and food, medications or clothes for our children. That my southern friend is an unfortunate fact that these public employees need to recognize. Times are tough and something has to give. I can understand the frustration they feel, but they don't seem to understand the frustration of the community.

SCBan · Member

True, but the point I am trying to get across is why not expand the FD's services into the surrounding communites?

-- Edited by SCBan at 21:24, 2005-06-03

alwayswatching · Guru

SCBan wrote:

True, but the point I am trying to get across is why not expand the FD's services into the surrounding communites? -- Edited by SCBan at 21:24, 2005-06-03

Your point was not lost on me, but where do you think the money needed to start that would come from?

""In Myrtle Beach, we've made a commitment to excellence in the level of our fire protection. That means keeping pace with rapid growth in our community. Our last ISO PPC survey helped us see where we were and where we needed to go. In a time of tight budgets, we were still able to add fire stations and staffing, and the PPC program helped us justify those expenses."

This program over time justified the expenses. Let be a little more blunt. There is no more money. People are having thier homes forclosed on because they can not pay the taxes. You can't get blood from a stone, it's that simple.

SCBan · Member

When you regionalize services the expenses are shared by all surrounding communities, relieving some of the burden of the city.

I also do not believe Lockport tax base is shrinking, to shrink you would need to lose the properties that are taxed, if anything, though small, I believe the tax base is increasing. I have seen quite a few number of new houses being built in the past few years and new developments being planned. Lockport is headed in a positive direction with revitalization.

alwayswatching · Guru

Yes I see the new houses going up , but so is your tax levy. That means your share needed to balance the budget after all revenue is totaled. If we are adding houses, but the tax levy continues to rise, we have big trouble. That means we are losing tax base elsewhere, that leaves industry. Sorry, but the numbers don't lie, we are in bad fiscal shape. It would be nice to dump this all on the city, county or state but we can't. If we don't learn anything else from Erie County let's at least learn to live within our means. If we continue at this rate we will be hearing "Ok we know we are millions in the hole, but what the heck open those parks and we must do golf". To bad Al doesn't post because we really need to wake up people!

-- Edited by alwayswatching at 10:46, 2005-06-04

jspeer · Guru

AW, how did I get into this? I agree we need quality EMS and Police to attract and maintain population and industry but I didn't post anything. I am beyond blue in the face arguing with people. I know both sides and have an educated opinion. Like they say you can lead a horse to water....

Date: Sat Jun 4 4:45 AM, 2005

On November 2, 1854 Lockport's big fire began in the Lockport House Hotel and destroyed 26 buildings and ten acres of the village were burned