Anonymous wrote:

---

Right again Lou, I didn't even notice that. I has become a habit just to try and keep the fighting from making the issues get lost. Like I said in my post this afternoon, lets take the fighting elsewhere.

---

Scott Leffler wrote:

---

But it's the big picture that matters. Ignore the stats and think to yourself: How many people do I know that have died of or are suffering from some form of cancer? Is that normal throughout the country? Simple answer - it isn't.

---

Scott, that makes no sense to me. Statistics are all we have to measure reality.

How many people (does somebody) know who have died or have cancer? You'll get 296,000,000 different opinions and personal observations on that. Is that any way to allocate resources for cancer research, hospitals, prevention education, etc? How are you going to know if the incidence locally is normal as compared to the rest of the country unless you have reliable statistical measures?

Like it or not, the only sane way we have for dealing with everything from global warming to base closings, is statistical analysis. If you want to argue about whether Health Dept numbers inaccurately reflect the situation here, due to fudging or methodological shortcomings, that's a more productive approach IMHO.

That was an excellent Dialog today. Ms. Reeb of the Starpoint parents was superb. You really had a great week.

jspeer wrote:

---

Wow Jim! I agree with you again. You can't depend on asking people how many people they know who have died of cancer....If it were only that simple. The stats are all we have. I think a better way of doing it would be to rely on more than one study and find the median number. That would atleast help to even out the numbers a little. What if you were polled and I was polled and we knew some of the same people...they would be counted twice then the people leaning the other way would say the polls were fixed. Don't think I'm not for KICKING CANCERS ASS! I just think if either side fudges the numbers it ruins the credability of their side.-- Edited by jspeer at 20:04, 2005-06-09

---

Guys -

Really, we're in agreement here - just looking from different angles. We have stats, true. But the stats disagree with each other. We NEED stats. But we also need common sense. That's all I'm saying.

Here's a quick primer on Plutonium:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium

and an excerpt:

<Orally, plutonium is less toxic (non-oncogenically speaking) than several common substances, including caffeine, acetaminophen, some vitamins, pseudoephedrine, and any number of plants and fungi. It is perhaps somewhat more toxic than pure ethanol, but less so than tobacco and many illegal drugs (some such as LSD and marijuana are negligibly toxic). From a purely chemical standpoint, its toxicity is probably on par with lead and other heavy metals.>

FYI what they do to determine toxicity is an LD50, which is to feed it to 100 white rats until 50 are dead.

Real scientific like.

I have to agree with AW: This IS crazy. SHOW ME THE NUMBERZ !! THE STATS do NOT "disagree with each other." Large numbers do not compare with small numbers. BULK, BULK, BULK. Don't you see the difference, but of course, how could you--"those" numbers AREN'T HERE are they?

Where are the statistics that purport to refute the numbers I have posted? I haven't seen those yet. Only talk. I have posted some actual figures. Would anyone care to place the numbers that I provided with the "other" numbers side by side? SHOW ME where the numbers conflict apples to apples--instead of apples to oranges. Some wish to argue semantics and definitions.

I know what I have been studying, referring to, conferring about this with (international health agencies ), Kaleida study discussion, Summer Session of University of Wisconsin-Epidemiology program, local hospitals, clinics--BUT my numbers are incorrect? 

IS there some alternative universe that you folks are discussing? I see the one sided opinion and time wasting machinations by some happening again. YES, PLUTONIUM HAS been detected in the waters of Niagara. Am I going to provide a citation here. No. IF someone would like the citations, I will provide them saying that Pu IS in the river water at Youngstown, NY. Other docs are available.

SHOW ME THE NUMBERZ Cuz!

This entire thread has gone to hell-in-a-hand-basket thanks to several "spin posts."

I guess that I'll just have to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to address these maniacal ramblings and misrepresentations. I've come to expect them. No logical sense at all, but hey like Mom said--"It takes all kinds in this old world." (My typing speed is increasing. Thank you.)

Go to the URL I posted. Look at the numbers and come back here and tell me that "These other numbers" (Where are they? Post them here) don't show an increase in cancer rates. You won't be able to do this.  GO LOOK AT THE NUMBERS from the URL I posted. Look at the numbers--they are accurate and unaltered. I'm getting tired of defending this position when others have shown NO Information when I and others have gone to some length to post these numbers from the NYSDOH.

Scott's previous comment was based on common sense and observational logic. I doubt that he was asking anyone to rely upon "anecdotal" information over statistics. That's just dumb and taking his comment out of context--again. Was this another tactic bringing this up in a literal sense rather than taking it for what Scott meant? Did anyone really think that Scott wanted us to "cure cancer" by identifying which neighbor has died or is sick? Duck, duck, goose? I think not.

I just don't get why this poster would say the things that they are and making "half-post" definitions with regard to the "relative" dangers of PLUTONIUM both chemically and radiologically. Here is what I know for SURE--doing this is DANGEROUSLY ANTISOCIAL to say the least!

THAT REALLY IS NUTS!

Unless someone understands the Nuclear Fuel Cycle, as it is known, front feed and waste stream back end-- then this information can be spun by ANY neophyte with very little understanding of the physics involved. Would the poster care to list the Decay Chain from PLUTONIUM on down and the ionizing emanations that each would give off? Half life times too would be appropriate. Please be specific as to each decay nuclide that can be expected from each of the Decay Daughters--with the accompanying energy level of each ionizing event associated with this molecular decay. Please don't ask me to explain. Get yourself a CRC Chemical & Physics handbook, or, Physics Made Simple by Doubleday. Please, no comments about only reading two books and then "becoming an expert" as was left before. I don't proclaim to be an "expert"-- My opinion and observations are respected by them though.

Don't spin the above as I'm not a neophyte.  If the poster understands this then let's move forward. If not, lets talk gardening--on another thread. Adding complexities to this issue are not needed, related and or are misleading, AGAIN this does nothing to help and IS DOING a great disservice to the community. I find it rather ODD that the "ERR" of having these materials in our environment is being allowed to happen on the side of the pollutant and dangerous radionuclide--and NOT on the side to the benefit of human. Why is this being done by a self-proclaimed "environmentalist?" Ask yourself that question...? THAT contradiction IS Scary!

It also seems that at least one poster here is a member of various organizations that would like to see less population on the earth--(Zero Population Growth)--it is ONLY from that perspective ANY of these recent comments make the least bit of sense--That is, if the poster would like to see less population on the earth then this would be a good way of going about it. If that is the case with the recent spin here by the one poster, then this misrepresentation of the facts would fit.

"Show me the numbers Jerry." Mine are already up. Show me the HUSABANDS, DADS and Men in Youngstown that have a 100% elevated rate of colorectal cancer over the state average! Let's start right there nearest to the PLUTONIUM. If radiation and radioactive materials are so safe, perhaps one poster would know right where to go -- To get these facts.

For those that continue to be confused about these statistics and how they are not being spoken of here accurately by some, I'd be happy to take the time and explain. This dog-chasing-its-tail dialog with some folks who do these sorts of things just "for fun" and "baiting" are below my further commentary and desire to participate. As far as I'm concerned, this poster has conflicts with me personally and that they are taking it out on all of the readers here by attempting to misrepresent this deadly situation on the board. Crass and foul.

I have posted more than a dozen statistics for VERY SPECIFIC cancers and geo-locations where they happen--but yet, I am fighting shadows and defending the unassailable...? Sure.

GO GET THE NUMBERS THAT I HAVE LEFT HERE AND PLACE YOURS RIGHT NEXT TO THEM.  Post them here and don't change the discussion or send us in another direction. Let's see the numbers that are being said to conflict with the other DOH numbers. Let's compare apples to apples. All I'm asking for is one number comparison Male-Youngstown-Colorectal Cancer.

No diatribes or spin explanations accepted. Start all further discussion about this with just the numbers. Someone is using only the BULK numbers (which have yet to be posted here). NO LINKS, I placed the actual numbers here. DO THE SAME or the discussion, game, set and match is over.

I stand behind my facts (oh, so too do several M.D.'s, Ph.D.'s, Nuclear Physicists and other professionals that do not include any failed school board candidates). I apologize to the sensible reader. Others be darned.

Here's one more--From the previous poster's quote about Pu...

He quotes-

<"Orally, plutonium is less toxic (non-oncogenically speaking) than several common substances, including caffeine, acetaminophen, some vitamins, pseudoephedrine, and any number of plants and fungi."

**"(non-oncogenically speaking)"  WHAT ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!?? This says quite clearly that the quote DOES NOT EVEN REFER TO CANCER! So Who's mixing apples with oranges. This is pathetically revealing in it intent. I find this attempt at disinformation/misinformation appallingly dangerous!!

With regret,

Lou Ricciuti

*Anyone want to start a new discussion thread about this somewhere else? Sans the distractions?

Please let me know as I like most of you, are tired of this one poster wasting everyone's time and then having some sort of laugh at us all.

AGAIN--LOOK AT THE NUMBERS LOCATED IN THE bottom box. Use these numbers and start here! The below link is much more friendly and in html instead of pdf format. Use the link to the box at the bottom of the page. You shouldn't be making comment until these are reviewed or IT IS NOTHING more than observations, conjecture and hearsay. My facts stand.

CLICK HERE http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/cancer/sublevel/countyl/iniagara.htm

   LOOK AT THE NUMBERS FROM THE ABOVE LINK - COUNTY ZIP CODE INDEX

"And one last thing--I'm sorry, but it is easily percieved that using an M.B.A. at the end of your name is pompous in all circles and especially inappropriate in this setting according to most Nettiquette. (Go Ask ERBIII & Go Look It Up-JERK-colostomy!)."

I agree that this is pompous. All those teachers out there need a masters degree to teach, and yet I don't think I have ever seen one put that at the end of their name. Sames goes for many professions, but we common folks don't need to fluff our own immage.

MY REVIEW OF NIAGARA COUNTY HEALTH DEPARTMENT "Press Release" of June 9, 2005.

After having reviewed and read the NCHD News Press Release related to Chemical & Fish Advisories...Kind-of-about Plutonium...but not really.

I can honestly say that I now know what vehicles that the officials all drive... Dodge !

Ten days AFTER the Ralph Nader press event at Lew-Port Schools on April 14, 2005, I requested Dr. Janette Sherman's letter from Residents for Responsible Government president, Mr. Vince Agnello, THREE TIMES. Please see dates.

Subj: Dear Vince Re: doctor letter
Date: 4/24/2005
To: agnello@niagara.edu
CC: NiagaraNet
BCC:

   Mr. Vince Agnello, President,
   Residents for Responsible Government
   Re: Nader visit and doctor letter

  Hello Mr. Agnello:

  I am writing today with a follow up question with regard to the recent Residents for Responsible Government press event with Ralph Nader at the Lewiston-Porter Schools, on Thursday, April 14, 2005. If you wouldn't mind, I could use this information for an upcoming meeting that I am planning about Lewiston-Porter's environment. As a resident, I am interested in any professional opinion of our area's environment, hence, my request.

  In specific, I am interested in obtaining a copy of the letter that was provided to RRG by a doctor, referenced in some of your press materials, as well as being read from the stage by Mr. Timothy Henderson of RRG/ROLE at the school event.

  I would like to have a copy of this letter if you wouldn't mind terribly, I'd certainly appreciate it.

  As always, I remain interested in any RRG announcements or activities that may be for the betterment of the area, with movement toward a safer environment.
 
  Thanking you in advance for any help.

  Sincerely,
  Lou Ricciuti
*******************************

THEN AGAIN FIVE DAYS LATER*

Subj: Vince Re: doctor letter - Resend
Date: 4/29/2005
To: agnello@niagara.edu
CC: NiagaraNet
BCC:

Subj:    Dear Vince Re: doctor letter   
Date: 4/24/2005   
To:    agnello@niagara.edu   

   Mr. Vince Agnello, President,
   Residents for Responsible Government
   Re: Nader visit and doctor letter

  Hello Mr. Agnello:

  I am writing today with a follow up question with regard to the recent Residents for Responsible Government press event with Ralph Nader at the Lewiston-Porter Schools, on Thursday, April 14, 2005. If you wouldn't mind, I could use this information for an upcoming meeting that I am planning about Lewiston-Porter's environment. As a resident, I am interested in any professional opinion of our area's environment, hence, my request.

  In specific, I am interested in obtaining a copy of the letter that was provided to RRG by a doctor, referenced in some of your press materials, as well as being read from the stage by Mr. Timothy Henderson of RRG/ROLE at the school event.

  I would like to have a copy of this letter if you wouldn't mind terribly, I'd certainly appreciate it.

  As always, I remain interested in any RRG announcements or activities that may be for the betterment of the area, with movement toward a safer environment.
 
  Thanking you in advance for any help.

  Sincerely,
  Lou Ricciuti
**********************

THEN AGAIN ONE WEEK AFTER PREVIOUS*

Subj: Third send, please?   Date: 5/6/2005   To: agnello@niagara.edu   CC: dianed@nirs.org, NiagaraNet 

In a message dated 4/29/2005 11:06:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, NiagaraNet writes:

Subj:Vince Re: doctor letter - Resend
Date:4/29/2005 11:06:03 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:NiagaraNet
To:agnello@niagara.edu
CC:NiagaraNet


Subj: Dear Vince Re: doctor letter
Date: 4/24/2005
To: agnello@niagara.edu


   Mr. Vince Agnello, President,
   Residents for Responsible Government
   Re: Nader visit and doctor letter


  Hello Mr. Agnello:

  I am writing today with a follow up question with regard to the recent Residents for Responsible Government press event with Ralph Nader at the Lewiston-Porter Schools, on Thursday, April 14, 2005. If you wouldn't mind, I could use this information for an upcoming meeting that I am planning about Lewiston-Porter's environment. As a resident, I am interested in any professional opinion of our area's environment, hence, my request.

  In specific, I am interested in obtaining a copy of the letter that was provided to RRG by a doctor, referenced in some of your press materials, as well as being read from the stage by Mr. Timothy Henderson of RRG/ROLE at the school event.

  I would like to have a copy of this letter if you wouldn't mind terribly, I'd certainly appreciate it.

  As always, I remain interested in any RRG announcements or activities that may be for the betterment of the area, with movement toward a safer environment.

 
  Thanking you in advance for any help.

  Sincerely,
  Lou Ricciuti

******************************************
Subj: Disappointment in RRG and with you not providing doctor letter
Date: 5/13/2005
To: Agnello@niagara.edu
CC: NiagaraNet
BCC:

Dear Mr. Vince Agnello:

It has now been more than three weeks since I requested to be sent the letter that was read at the RRG Ralph Nader event by Mr. Tim Henderson from the stage on April 14, 2005, at Lewiston - Porter School and I have become very disappointed in RRG and your effort at avoiding this simple request. I do not understand how RRG, as a "community watchdog" organization is unwilling to provide this letter that was referenced in numerous sources.

I would still be happy to receive this letter from the doctor that was read at the Nader event. I don't see how excluding me from these communications serves any purpose to the community and its members.

I will await your response.
Sincerely,
Louis Ricicuti
Lewiston, NY

*****************
**********************************
Citation -

*According to the NYS Appellate Div., office of Attorney Grievance, RRG President and Niagara University law curriculum professor Mr. Vincent Agnello, was first censured on March 8, 1996 and then finally DISBARRED from the legal profession on December 31, 1997, for malpractice/misconduct.

This is the sort of representation the public gets around Niagara County with serious and potentially deadly issues? There's more buried and out of view than just waste!

FROM NIAGARA GAZETTE REPORT OF NADER VISIT -

NOTICE that Niagara County Health Department Dir. Paulette Kline mentions "Well Water Testing."

Nader wants waste halted
By Aaron Besecker
Friday, April 15, 2005

LEWISTON — Environmental and consumer activist Ralph Nader pushed local residents concerned about health issues related to CWM Chemical Services to get informed and get involved when he spoke at Lewiston-Porter High School Thursday night.

Nader, along with a panel of local and national health and pollution experts, addressed about 200 locals at a meeting dubbed “Take Ownership of Your Community - Know the Toxic Waste in Your Neighborhood.”

Presenters gave information on the history of toxic and radiological waste in the area, along with the current activities and concerns on areas in Lewiston and Porter. Panelists also answered questions from the public.

In a opening speech that garnered much applause, Nader encouraged involvement and activism as the solution to this area’s toxic problem — a problem each individual has a responsibility to resolve.

Environmental issues like the ones in the Niagara area require a special form of diligence and attention, he said.

“You’re dealing with a silent form of violence,” Nader said. “It doesn’t come with sirens. It doesn’t come with noise.”

Nader discussed the possibility of the infamous Hudson River PCBs coming to CWM, and also said the state Department of Health has not done its job protecting citizens from health hazards in and around the old Lake Ontario Ordnance Works site.

“You need to find out what is in these pits,” Nader said.

He also called for operations at CWM to cease, saying the area has already taken in its share of toxic and chemical waste in its history.

“It’s time to shut this dump down,” he said.

Nader, who mistakenly referred to CWM as CMW initially, left quickly after his speech for a scheduled appearance with musician Patti Smith at a Buffalo church.

Vincent Agnello, president of Residents for Responsible Government, the group that organized the event, continued Nader’s message of the importance of community involvement.

“The time is now to make the right decisions,” Agnello said. “It’s time for the residents to take back the community.”

RRG formed in 2001 in protest of actions by the Porter Town Board regarding CWM and has continually worked to have the site shut down.

Niagara County Health Department director Paulette Kline detailed the county’s efforts to sample wellwater in the area, as well as the LOOW Initiative done in conjunction with the Restoration Advisory Board. She acknowledged the known health concerns, including elevated cancer rates, near the Lew-Port Schools and downwind from CWM.

“We know we have unexplained rates of illness in the area,” Kline said.

Along with Kline, the panel included Diane D’Arrigo, the director of Radioactive Waste Project of the Nuclear Information and Resource Service in Washington, D.C., Roger Cook, director of the Western New York Committee on Occupational Health, and Tim Henderson, a Lewiston resident, who read a letter written by Dr. Janette Sherman, a nationally known physician and author.

(Entire letter was not read to public as was requested by Dr. Sherman and RRG's Rolland erroneously called Diane D'Arrigo a "doctor" on Scott's radio show. RRG's Henderson jokingly stated that he was in charge of water safety-quality on the same show back in April. Listen to PodCast "PCB's.")

*******************************
AND BEHIND THE SCENES---

Subj: RE: RRG Mr. Agnello press Re: Pu HELP
Date: 5/20/2005 5:10:33 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: rosaliebertell, Ph.D., G.N.S.H.
To: NiagaraNet@aol.com
Sent from the Internet

Dear Lou,

Janette and I are in touch. She has already told the director of the school that this is serious and calls for immediate response. I think you are correct and I have sent this to her. I cannot interfere directly because they have not asked me. However, Janette is good and will give strong advice.

Rosalie

----------------------------
ON THE MORNING OF THE NADER EVENT AGNELLO WRITES TO Dr. SHERMAN FOR IMMEDIATE RESPONSE.....the following
-----------
> On Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 08:39 AM, Vincent Agnello wrote:
>>
>> Dr. Sherman:
>> I would like to again thank for sending the detailed letter yesterday.
>> I will be read at the meeting by our past Vice President, Tim
>> Henderson.
>> He was instrumental is stopping CWM in the early 90's from installing an
>> incinerator at the location.

>> I am putting together a PowerPoint to be shown during reading of your
>> letter.  I have copied a picture from the internet, but because it is

>> of low pixels it will not show well on the screen.  If you have an
>> digital picture you can send that would be great.  Otherwise I will use the
>> existing picture in very small format and use text around you picture
>> to fill the space.  Please do not go out of your way if it is not readily
>> available.
>>
>> Some one in our group said that there is trace amounts of Plutonium
              in  our drinking water.  That is the first that I have heard about it. 
>> They  indicated that it is not be harmful.  I have been reading and saying
>> that any amount in any form is extremely dangerous.  What are your
>> thoughts.  I want to be prepared if the question comes up tonight.  I
>> do  not want to over react, but if it is dangerous I want to say so.
>>
>> Do you know if Plutonium is common in drinking water?
>>
>> Thank you.
>> Sincerely,
>> Vincent Agnello