shughes wrote:

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I think she would say: judge not let ye be judged. Or maybe Love thy neighbor.

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Anonymous wrote:

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I see the war on Christianity continues to escalate. Let's keep the playing field level shall we MC?....Gay & lesbian unions will only serve to weaken the institution of marriage and further dilute the sanctity associated with it.

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Allow me quote the great sage John Stewart: (Be sure to imagine your best evangelical voice when you read it)

"Ah yes, the long war on Christianity! I PRAY, that one day, we might live in an America, where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion, (perhaps around their necks), and maybe, dare I dream it, one day, there could even be an openly Christian President......or, perhaps, 43 of them......consecutively."

Let's talk traditional marriages for a moment. About half of them end in divorce within the first 3 years. Another third within 10 years. 70% of husbands cheat on their wives, and wives, about 40% are cheaters. Almost 90% of spouses lie to each other. 45% of parents subject their children to some form of abuse, neglect or other maltreatment.

The belief that gays will even affect the institution of marriage is unlikely. That they can somehow affect it for the worse is nigh impossible. If anyone is disrespecting the sanctity of marriage, it's heterosexuals.

"Marriage is the only adventure open to the cowardly."

                                                                    - Voltaire

shughes wrote:

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MC makes some very good points. By comparison, the gay couples I know stay together much longer that the traditional ones. I just don't see how any one of us can pass judgment on others like that. What's that saying, people who live in glass houses...

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shughes,

You're right - it's all about judging. It doesn't matter your color, creed or orientation, once we start accepting each other, we'll all be much better off.

*                      *                                         *

Delivered on the steps at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C. on August 28, 1963.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity. But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free.

One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land.

So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition. In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir.

This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation.

So we have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of God's children. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination of the Negro. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights.

The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges. But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. we must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone. And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" we can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair. I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring." And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

A friend of mine once posted this not too long ago on another board, read and think about it:

My life radically changed last year. Exactally how is not important, just that it had. In that time a man who I'd known for many years helped me through the rough times. He's a man I loved deeply. And due to circumstances, I couldn't go out to be with him right away. But we planned for it. We knew the problems involved, but we were both willing to do it.

In April of last year he passed away. He never told me that his diabetes was as bad as it was. He never told me about the mild heart attacks he had in the past. And he never really told me that his diet wasn't steady because he wasn't "hungry" all the time. Protecting me to the end, that's how he always had been. He went quietly, in his sleep. I was the last to talk to him before he passed on.

He had a heart attack that came out of nowhere, and he never felt anything happen from all I've been told. I tried for days to find him, doing everything I could from here. I finally heard from his boss, because in her words I sounded "very concerned". Thankfully, she gave my phone number to his family, so we could grieve together. If she hadn't done that, there would have been no closure for me. Legally speaking, I would have been left in the cold.

You have no idea how much I've been beating myself up over the situation. If I were there, I could have done something. I could have called the family, and not let that job go to the coroner's office. I could have taken him to a hospital to save his life, even if I couldn't sign anything to give permission to treat. I should have been there, but I wasn't. And even if I were there, I don't know anything that I could have done within the legal system as someone who is legally only his "roommate".

Even in the aftermath I couldn't claim his body, I couldn't act on his behalf and I couldn't legally clean up his affairs such as the apartment. But I could have given the dignity of a human face for his family, and not let them deal with well meaning strangers who see this kind of thing all the time. There's something to be said about maintaining dignity in someone's death as well as in life.

To anyone who disagrees with gay marrage, or even rights for people who love each other, think about this. I want you to imagine yourself helpless as one of your loved one writhes in agony. As they're being wheeled into the hospital, you're stopped at the door and told "You can't go in there, your job is done and we can't tell you what's going on. You can go home now." I want you to think about watching someone you love die, and you can't do a thing about it. You can not legally give the doctors the right to treat. I want you to try to comprehend the gut-wrenching feelings, and the crushing sadness that comes from watching, unable to lift a finger. Then I want you to imagine them dying, and you can't do anything to help your loved one when they're gone. Now I want you to imagine trying to piece together what happened from third party informaiton, because you can't legally be told by authorities what did happen. Now imagine that everything they set forth in their will for you cannot be honored, because you're 'just a friend.'

Now you can start to understand my world.

He and I had talked about marrage when it was first talked about. He was more connected with the issues of the day. We both agreed that we would take things one small disaster at a time in our lives when I could get out there with him. It won't happen now. I miss him, and I still love him, but I'm still sad. I hate feeling helpless.

So don't get on your high horses about the sanctity of marrage. Don't tell me that it's all about money. Don't tell me that you're doing it "for the children". It's about life, all aspects of life. It's about quality of life, and making it better for two people. And it's about sharing you life with someone else, and that includes sharing the end of life.

Mindcrime wrote:

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Mike, have you tried not being homophobic?
Aww boy. I could post for 3 hours on this, but I'll try to briefly sum up.
1. Gay rights are not a religious issue. I don't care what your religion tells you, because it doesn't apply here. Stop quoting the bible. Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
2. If marriage is threatened by anyone, it's heterosexual, 'traditional' couples. They're the ones ruining things for everyone.
3. Gays are not interested in 'marriages' per se, but a civil union which would grant them the same rights as hetero couples enjoy. Things like health insurance for your partner, tax benefits, power of attorney, that kind of thing. They're not concerned with all the nonsense the religious zealots spew.

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mindcrime seems to know quite a bit about what the gay community wants .

 

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Mindcrime wrote: Mike, have you tried not being homophobic? Aww boy. I could post for 3 hours on this, but I'll try to briefly sum up. 1. Gay rights are not a religious issue. I don't care what your religion tells you, because it doesn't apply here. Stop quoting the bible. Just because you believe in something, doesn't mean it's right for everyone. 2. If marriage is threatened by anyone, it's heterosexual, 'traditional' couples. They're the ones ruining things for everyone. 3. Gays are not interested in 'marriages' per se, but a civil union which would grant them the same rights as hetero couples enjoy. Things like health insurance for your partner, tax benefits, power of attorney, that kind of thing. They're not concerned with all the nonsense the religious zealots spew. How about the Gov't lets gay people get bennies without destroying the traditional marriage. I for one don't care who marries who or what for that matter as long as I'm invited to party! LOL

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i am not afraid of Homos , not even a little .

MLK was not true to his own marriage , his comments about marriage do not apply .

    if you knew me you would know that i am not a bible thumping religious zealot , and i dont drag gay people around behind my pickup truck , i dont even have a pickup truck besides the plow beast that never leaves the parking lot .   but, i do not support special treatment for those individuals who so clearly are choosing to not follow the laws set out in the scriptures by the creator .   that is my right .

    i know i will be judged for my mistakes and sins .   so will every one else . not by myself .     the one who will be judging me is the one i worry about offending .

i will leave it at that , next thing i know you people will be telling me that abortion is not murder  ... 

" i do not support special treatment for those individuals"

And here I thought they only wanted equal treatment! Sorry Mike this is not about the bible, it is about equal rights. You are a big defender that the patriot act does not take away are freedom, and yet you don't believe that every citizen is entitled to the same freedoms. You can't have it both ways my friend. Freedom is freedom!

shughes wrote:

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I think she would say: judge not let ye be judged. Or maybe Love thy neighbor.

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    no , i dont want it to be about the bible or scripture - i was attempting to tie in abortion deaths to illegal immigration numbers .

and point out that supreme court decisions can be flawed , as many have been since the 50s.

the framers of the constitution while not allowing any one particular religion to be approved as government sponsored or approved did not wish to operate / exist without guidance from the scriptures or the creator . 

read your money . read the declaration of independance .