How sad

dovey · Veteran Member

RE: How sad

Date: Fri Jul 22 5:05 PM, 2005

Are you paranoid or do you just have a persecution complex Dovey? Who said anything about you or anyone else. Talk about reactionary! Who cares what church you EVER went to....I go to Synagogue a few times a year, what of it? What would you and yours say if I went to a Mosque. Why don't you just get off BOTH of your high horses? NOT everything is about YOU!

dovey · Veteran Member

Anonymous wrote:

Are you paranoid or do you just have a persecution complex Dovey? Who said anything about you or anyone else. Talk about reactionary! Who cares what church you EVER went to....I go to Synagogue a few times a year, what of it? What would you and yours say if I went to a Mosque. Why don't you just get off BOTH of your high horses? NOT everything is about YOU!

no are you?

-- Edited by dovey at 16:21, 2005-07-24

Date: Fri Jul 22 7:27 PM, 2005

It might also have been the Epiphany group, or the Sufis, Jim Jones is dead so it ain't his people. Mohatma is gone too, as is Martin Luther, both of them, but you can't turn your head around those Lutherans either. Then there's that religeous zelot that we never yet have gotten to see, only his desciples, that Harry Crishna guy sending his people into the airports. Hey--what about those people and their BAGGY clothes-robes. THEY'RE the ones that MUST BE responsible for all of this, by process of elimination. "Shoot em all and let God figure it out." Right? Brown skinned, yellow, red, black....? Can't wait till they issue all those cool uniforms from The Federation just like Capt. Kirk used to wear.

Date: Fri Jul 22 8:48 PM, 2005

Rosicrucians? Masons? Scouts? Who's next?

Date: Sat Jul 23 4:08 PM, 2005

Poor thing's "confussed."

I think we see that!

Date: Sat Jul 23 5:18 PM, 2005

That whole Rosey thing is very sad too. Sadness is bad.

Date: Sun Jul 24 2:32 PM, 2005

Man Shot by London Police Not Connected to Bombings
Citizens Say the Mistaken Killing Makes Them More Fearful
By JILL LAWLESS, AP
LONDON (July 23) - The man officers killed in a dramatic subway shooting apparently had nothing to do with a series of bombing attacks on London's transit system, police said Saturday, calling the death a "tragedy'' and expressing their regret.....

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WE NEED ANOTHER FLIP FLOP FLAP--hurry, Terry Schiavo's dead, that other Terry's not and still winning, pay attention to these and stop whinning..

--------------Karl Rove gets the presumption of innocence while the poor slob in the London subway is shot to death. I guess that's the difference between America's presumed innocent and the Brit system. Too bad though, that with all the talk of globalism, laws will still be used capriciously, applied and directed at the discresion of the rulers upon the weak. Equal justice my donkey's ass. Here's the first time you probably ever heard the guys name that was shot in London....

The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.

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You won't hear much more.

Date: Sun Jul 24 3:53 PM, 2005

Wonder if the police will learn from this mistake? As MoTM says earlier in this thread, and it's a doozey of a thread, "If you don't learn from your mistakes.."

Since the article says that this whole shooting thing has Londoners fearful, I wonder if this means we need more global security forces or more peace. I ain't no liberal.

Date: Sun Jul 24 4:09 PM, 2005

I see a bunch of edits on this thread. Did something go wrong? A little off thread topic>?

Date: Sun Jul 24 4:15 PM, 2005

You may think you know who I am ,But do you?

Nope,You think I am a bird,Nope!

Date: Sun Jul 24 4:19 PM, 2005

Nope. Know you're not a bird, just dope. More than one bird here. Dodo's, Cuckoo's, some Perckerheads, Hawks, Heck Even a Duck. Don't care who YOU are.

Mindcrime · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

Karl Rove gets the presumption of innocence while the poor slob in the London subway is shot to death. I guess that's the difference between America's presumed innocent and the Brit system.

Would you be any more surprised if it happened in the US? While we have presumed innocence on paper, how often is it practiced?

Date: Mon Jul 25 6:14 AM, 2005

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3732169.stm

Random bag searches!!!!! Thats a disgrace!!!!! I never thought that was legal.

My mother used to have the tradition of going to new york to visit our american relations every year before christmas. She always went, even 9/11 didnt stop her. But now she and everyone in our family refuse to go there under any circumstances because our fingerprints will be taken. I wish it wasnt the case but we refuse to be treated like criminals just because we're visiting a country. NOw you can't even ride the subway without someone sniffing your crotch?

Im not just complaining about america. Here in ireland theres talk of ID cards that EVERYBODY has to carry ALL THE TIME. If you dont carry it you can be prosicuted. Its ricockulous.

Scott Leffler · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

Here in ireland theres talk of ID cards that EVERYBODY has to carry ALL THE TIME. If you dont carry it you can be prosicuted. Its ricockulous.

First of all ... welcome to my website from across the big pond. Sheesh, we're global now, huh?

Second, it this some Irish word I don't know? Or did you just make it up? And if you made it up, did you patent it? And if not, I'm using it.

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

personally have nothing to hide. A minor inconvenience, such as airport screening, to keep my children safe is a small price to pay.

Please, someone, tell me what all of the peace loving lefties propose as a real solution to this global problem. If you have discovered the secret to world peace please enlighten me. It is so typical to see the tree hugging peacekateers rant about how terrible the world is and how they have a better way. I would love to be a fly on the wall when you encountered the militants and started singing hippy tunes. Somehow I doubt they would drop the AK-47 and share a bong. Be realistic! Sometimes force is the only option. And it is not racial profiling to seek out and investigate young male Islamists that have potential ties to terrorism. I am sure many of you would prefer that we look at all the groups to keep things PC but that is ridiculous. I have to practicing Muslims that work for me in my office. They do not mind the extra searches or questions. They are as concerned for their children as I am for mine and they agree it is a small price to pay. They are as repulsed by the militants among them as we are and they know the lengths that they will go. They are only satisfied when we bow to their will and embrace the Laws of Islam. This is their extreme interpretation and not the peaceful god fearing religion that most of the Muslim world embraces.

I am not looking for personal attacks, only ideas. Let this forum be a mini think tank. I would love to hear one new creative idea for dealing with terrorism. I certainly won’t find one at the DNC.

Mindcrime · Guru

Using conventional military tactics is useless. You have to SECRETLY infiltrate their organizations, using state-of-the-art technology and highly-trained operatives. You LEARN about your enemy, learn their methods, how they plan, how they choose targets, and where their hiding places are. Only by using patience and guile can we overcome this new threat. There's your solution.

Can anyone tell me what ideas the conservatives have EVER had BESIDES stomping through other countries with armies and tanks and dropping high explosives on other human beings? The terrorists are using guerilla tactics, and we're using century-old, army vs. army methodology. It's like this: you spill a drink, you wipe it up with a napkin; spill a drink, wipe it up with a napkin; spill maple syrup, and you're still trying to wipe it up with that napkin. And the more you try to wipe it up, the bigger a mess you make.

shughes · Senior Member

truthpatrol wrote:

Please, someone, tell me what all of the peace loving lefties propose as a real solution to this global problem. If you have discovered the secret to world peace please enlighten me. It is so typical to see the tree hugging peacekateers rant about how terrible the world is and how they have a better way.

I just love the terms and generalizations that get posted here. Tree hugging peacekateer's is about the best yet. Sorry truthpatrol this poster doesn't hug trees, they make me sneeze. I'm not a "peace loving leftie", I just see that the current approach is not working. I'm really not into beating my head against a brick wall repeatedly until everyone is flattened. You are correct that sometimes force is needed if you know for sure who and where that is. My problem with continuing to use force is that for this issue, it's not working. Let's think outside of the box and find a better way. Saying we don't know a better way so we will use force is primitive at best.

I have no problem with airport security, better to be safe than sorry. What I have a problem with is taking that mindset to extremes.

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

Using conventional military tactics is useless. You have to SECRETLY infiltrate their organizations, using state-of-the-art technology and highly-trained operatives. You LEARN about your enemy, learn their methods, how they plan, how they choose targets, and where their hiding places are. Only by using patience and guile can we overcome this new threat. There's your solution.

I would have to disagree that our current tactics are not working. How many terrorist attacks on American soil have we had since 9/11? As far as infiltration goes, yes I saw that episode of the â€œA Teamâ€ as well, I am sure that we are already engaged in this approach. Isnâ€™t the capture of Saddam proof of this? We received intelligence from the inside, followed it up, and captured Saddam. These tactics are not new. How many James Bond movies did you have to watch to come up with such a creative idea?

Can anyone tell me what ideas the conservatives have EVER had BESIDES stomping through other countries with armies and tanks and dropping high explosives on other human beings? The terrorists are using guerilla tactics, and we're using century-old, army vs. army methodology. It's like this: you spill a drink, you wipe it up with a napkin; spill a drink, wipe it up with a napkin; spill maple syrup, and you're still trying to wipe it up with that napkin. And the more you try to wipe it up, the bigger a mess you make.

Can anyone tell me what ideas the Liberals have had to deal with terrorism or any hostile entity? I am sure that economic sanctions and talk will not get the job done. I assure you, as a person that worked extensively with military technology, that the tactics we implore are not as simple as you make them out to be. For that matter many military tactics are centuries old. I refer you to Sun Tzuâ€™s The Art of War. These tactics are millennia old and are still used today. Age does not define the worthiness of a military tactic. I do not believe that we should let the Terrorist define our military tactics. They fight a guerilla war so we are supposed to match them. This is ridiculous. People everywhere are bandwagon jumpers. By this I mean they want to be on the winning team and I believe all people want their freedom. By decimating the terrorist infrastructure and implementing a dragnet on their finances we have managed to achieve some modicum of success. These newfound freedoms can be infectious and may spread throughout a historically volatile region.

...I just see that the current approach is not working. I'm really not into beating my head against a brick wall repeatedly until everyone is flattened. You are correct that sometimes force is needed if you know for sure who and where that is. My problem with continuing to use force is that for this issue, it's not working. Let's think outside of the box and find a better way. Saying we don't know a better way so we will use force is primitive at best.

What results would you need to see to acknowledge success? I would bet that if we pulled out all of our troops and had another 9/11 people would be back to supporting our war efforts. Think outside the box? Saying we donâ€™t know a better way so we use force. So you think we should do nothing? Wait until Hillary and company have some brainstorming session and solve all of our problems. I think they have all had enough time to be creative. Where is the Kerry plan that he said he would reveal if elected? Is he saving his knowledge for the next campaign? That would be terrible. To continue to let the fighting continue when you have the solution. Do you really believe that the Right Wing wants to be at war and subject our children to harm? You would have to be delusional to buy into that. Most of the people I encounter that oppose the war all say the same useless crap. We need to find a better way. War is bad. Well no sh*t. The sky is blue and the grass is green. Lets waste more time pointing out the obvious. Still havenâ€™t heard anything new from anyone. It is laughable that the left cannot even formulate a plan of their own. They can only point out the flaws in the existing plan. This is why they lose elections. No vision or creativity. Only obstruction and mindless banter. I pity the little guy that has to defend this party on the local forums. They are not giving you much to work with. I look forward to getting the 60 votes in the next Senatorial election. Then the ever present tactic of filibuster will be useless and real change can ensue.

shughes · Senior Member

shughes wrote:

mike of the mountain wrote: "those who do not learn by the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them" -- Edited by mike of the mountain at 13:58, 2005-07-09

Oh but Mike I do learn from my mistakes, but I don't stop with just mine. One of things that history teaches us is how not to do things. Over and over we see hate feeding hate. Sorry you don't agree, but I'm just not programed for revenge. You can't make me believe that anything good will come from getting even. Oh sure it might make you feel better for a bit, but then the other side does it. Then you are right back where you started, wanting to get even. Sorry my friend but their has to be a better way. The way we do things now doesn't seem to work, let's learn from that!

TP I'm a bit confused by your last post, was that directed at me or all posters that don't agree with you? The above posting is where I stood 3 weeks ago and I continue to hold that opinion. This is not the best of examples to make your point.

"Isn't the capture of Saddam proof of this? We received intelligence from the inside, followed it up, and captured Saddam. These tactics are not new."

That whole process of intelligence was flawed from the get go. Didn't I hear somewhere that that war was initiated on false intelligence? I know Scott has an opinion on that. I stand by my opinion the the current tactics are not working.

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

shughes wrote:

shughes wrote:

mike of the mountain wrote: "those who do not learn by the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them" -- Edited by mike of the mountain at 13:58, 2005-07-09
Oh but Mike I do learn from my mistakes, but I don't stop with just mine. One of things that history teaches us is how not to do things. Over and over we see hate feeding hate. Sorry you don't agree, but I'm just not programed for revenge. You can't make me believe that anything good will come from getting even. Oh sure it might make you feel better for a bit, but then the other side does it. Then you are right back where you started, wanting to get even. Sorry my friend but their has to be a better way. The way we do things now doesn't seem to work, let's learn from that!

When did I ever say anything about revenge? Hate feeding Hate..Can we be more cliche'. There has to be a better way...What is it? I am listening. And please don't sing me a song from the 60's. I asked several pointed questions and get no response.
As I have stated previously. I enjoy differing views. I would love for you, or anyone else, to convince me that I am wrong to be Right. This forum would not interest me if everyone always agreed with me. Where is the challenge in that? How can I learn from that? I love nothing more than to read an intelligent post and think to myself that " Yes they have a point" . Simply stating there has to be a better way is not a point nor does it illicit a response. Please, anyone, make me think..

shughes · Senior Member

You sure are prompt TP, but could you please explain the quotes you posted. We can copy posts all day and rehash the entire thread if you want. But please explain what about these posts concerns you. If you have a point to make with them, I respect that. How about sharing your thought process to me.

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

I thought I did explain. I mean that all I hear is " There has to be a better way" but noone ever proposes the better way. It is frustrating to listen to people bash the current plan when the fundamentl problem with the left is their lack of a plan. I did not intend to rehash old postings. I simply responded to your last post and that contained a reference to an earlier post.
As far as making a point with this I am sorry if I am not clear. I want to hear a plan. Valid ideas that make me think. You never know someone may actually come up with something useful.
As far as my thought process. I read as much as possible, I try to base my opinions on fact and I recognize that which is realistic. In a perfect world things would be different. On paper socialism is perfection and people want for nothing. Unfortunately they forgot the human variable. I am not opposed to peace. I am opposed to putting my blinders on and thinking the world will be different just because we want it to be.

shughes · Senior Member

See now, I can relate to that, thank you. I don't wear blinders, don't like the look. I can understand your frustration with all of us tree hugging peacekateers. Hey Scott can I change my sign in to tree hugging peacekateer? I think the thinking behind these posts is that violence only creates more violence. The innocent by standers in all of this is the children. We have become a nation that says if you don't play by our rules we not only will go home, but we will pound the living snot out of you with our toys! None of us have the magic answer here, but we pay people that should. All I can say is the history has proven that the way we do things is not working.

truthpatrol · Veteran Member

That is where we disagree. I believe the way we are doing things is working and I believe the way we have done things got us exactly where we are. The strongest nation on the planet. The last remaining superpower. We did not get here by sitting passively and waiting for solutions to pop out of thin air. We achieved greatness by fighting for it. I am sure you can find that in a thrid grade history book.
What are the people you support proposing as a solution? I understand that you may not have the answers and you believe the people we pay should. Well then, I know where the people I support stand. What solution does the left support? Simple question.Please help me to see the light.