Religion Kept OUT Of Politics?

Mindcrime · Guru

Religion Kept OUT Of Politics?

Jim Sacco · Senior Member

Does not suprise me. Minnesota is almost as insane as New York. They voted in Jesse the Body Ventura as their Governor before.

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

Mindcrime wrote:

This is a twist, a political candidate being attacked on Faux News because he has religious beliefs. Because of certain aspects of this man's personal beliefs, he has been discriminated against and his significant other was fired because his campaign was under fire. Apparently, only certain religions are allowed to run for office. Does this bother you? Anger you? If you thought "it depends," why did you think that? Should it matter? Here's The Story Now, honestly. Are you still angry?

i dont see an attack here ? just reporting .

no anger before during or after .

if i lived there ,no, i would not vote to support a vampire wannabe for govenor of the state .

Mindcrime · Guru

Why not? Do his religious preferences really mean that much to you? Did you consider Dubya's religion when casting your vote?

I don't think religion should be an issue, what with our separation of curch & state...

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

Mindcrime wrote:

Why not? Do his religious preferences really mean that much to you? that guy made it an issue , not me , if he had kept his mouth shut and stuck to the issues of the election , that fact that he wants to be a vampire and worship the devil when he is elected govenor never would have entered the conversation , there would have been no article and he would have been dismissed as another tooney loons politician wanna be.

Did you consider Dubya's religion when casting your vote? yes

I don't think religion should be an issue, what with our separation of curch & state... "seperation of church and state" ... you know it doesnt say that .... or should i say, please show to me where it says that ? pick one , either will do .

Mindcrime · Guru

He was being forthcoming, which is more than you can say for most political candidates. Had he kept it hidden, you would say he's hiding his darker side and wasnted to usurp the land of Minnesota for his Dark Lord, or something equally dumb. I respect his open honesty.

What makes him Looney Tunes? Because he's not one of the 2 "biggies?" No respect for the little guy, huh?

If there's no separation of church and state, expect an 'extra collection' at mass this Sunday, 'cause they collectively owe the government trillions of back taxes. Don't worry, even if they all paid up, Bush would burn through that in a matter of weeks.

RattyJenn · Senior Member

I guess everything is subjective, huh? I mean The Christian right are no doubt recoiling in horror, at this guy, but this is further proof that they cannot see past their own belief system. --This guy's bizarre, but they are not? If I was forced to take a side, I'm not sure which one I'd choose. The extreme right only preaches religious tolerance for one type of religion--their own! I don't see how this is so different.

And no, I'm not a Vampire.

But I did vote for Al Lewis (Grampa Munster) for governor in, I belielve it was the early 90's...As far as I know he isn't a vampire, either.

-- Edited by RattyJenn at 13:26, 2006-01-21

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

RattyJenn wrote:

I guess everything is subjective, huh? I mean The Christian right are no doubt recoiling in horror, at this guy, but this is further proof that they cannot see past their own belief system. --This guy's bizarre, but they are not? If I was forced to take a side, I'm not sure which one I'd choose. The extreme right only preaches religious tolerance for one type of religion--their own! I don't see how this is so different. And no, I'm not a Vampire. But I did vote for Al Lewis (Grampa Munster) for governor in, I belielve it was the early 90's...As far as I know he isn't a vampire, either. -- Edited by RattyJenn at 13:26, 2006-01-21

well - if you use common sense and look at his statements ;

he admits that there is a "Christian" god by admitting that there is a devil and stating that the "Christian" god is his enemy. he must also know that all of the end of time scenarios dont have the devil finishing well and yet he aligns himself with the loosing side anyway ? he also antagonises atheiests by stateing he is the enemy of someone they dont think exists .

by aligning himself with the devil he antagonises many possible Christian supporters . ? why ? does he suppose that will help him isn some way ?

so far he has not shown good judgement in making any decision we have witnessed , and yet he expects voters to assume he can make good decisions for their futures ? an assumption i am sure the voters will prove to be in-correct.

Mindcrime · Guru

I just don't see him as being any more antagonistic than the Christian who attacks the Atheist for not believing in his God. You're judging this man soley on his religious beliefs. He hasn't made any public policy decisions because he's not even in office yet!! We're choosing a public servant, not electing a Pope. And until you can see past that, Mikey, you will be biased and wrong.

Scott Leffler · Veteran Member

MC,

This is a character issue. And the guy's weird. For that, I couldn't vote for him. Not becuse he worships the dark lord, but because he ... no, I guess it's because he worships the dark lord. If that makes me biased, then so be it. I can deal with Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Agnostics, Atheists and other "religions." Vampirism is not a religion. It's a parlour game. If a grown man can't figure that out, how's he going to figure out how to run the state?

jspeer · Guru

I totally agree, Scott....good to see you're back!

Mindcrime · Guru

Scott Leffler wrote:

...Vampirism is not a religion. It's a parlour game. If a grown man can't figure that out, how's he going to figure out how to run the state?

The drinking of blood is an odd practice, but no more so than believing you can get sound advice from a flaming shrub. And while Vampirism is not currently a recognized religion, Satanism is. This country was practically established on religious freedom, remember the Puritans? So it just seems hypocritical that over three centuries later, we're knocking a potential public servant because of his religious views, yet we blindly support a President because of them. That's not America. (Well, it is, but that's not what it's supposed to be...)

And as kooky Mr. Sharkey may be, they said the same things about another ex-pro-wrestler, Jesse Ventura, and he managed to turn the state around with his no-nonsense, unbiased style of politics. Special interests, lobbyists and corporations all hated him because he wouldn't sell out. And think about it, look at how 200 years of normal, respectable, conservative leaders have gotten us. It couldn't hurt to try something different for a change.

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

The drinking of blood is an odd practice, but no more so than believing you can get sound advice from a flaming shrub. And while Vampirism is not currently a recognized religion, Satanism is. This country was practically established on religious freedom, remember the Puritans? the puritans would have executed him , remember the salem witch trials and subsequent burnings ?

So it just seems hypocritical that over three centuries later, we're knocking a potential public servant this guy has little to no chance because of his religious views , yet we blindly support a President because of them. That's not America. (Well, it is, but that's not what it's supposed to be..) i dont see very much blind support here ...

RattyJenn · Senior Member

Okay, motm, you're right, the puritans would've executed him--but, that doesn't automatically make one side right and one side wrong. If you look at objective history, the "witches" who were condemned to death during the Salem Witch trials were later found to be psychotic, or...something, due to fermented/poisonous grain (vomitoxin) that was consumed in everyday foodstuffs. Let's bear in mind food preservation wasn't all that great back then.

So, you can hardly site the Salem Witch trials as an example of "Good Christian" values. Increase and Cotton Mather were just as nuts as the rest of them, show me proof that they weren't. I am not being difficult, and I am sure as hell not saying this guy (the vampire candidate) isn't a little off, but to use that example is not fair...

You'll have to excuse me, there are some green potatoes in my pantry that are calling my name. (Get it, green potatoes? It's another example of toxic food...'member the potato famine in Ireland???) I'm just having some fun. Sorry to get into the middle of this heated topic. I just think that there are two sides to every story.

Mindcrime · Guru

The Salem Witch Trials, as Ratty pointed out, were the result of chemically-induced mass hysteria, and are a prime example of what happens when you mix religion and politics.

And as far as Bush's supporters? Many of them are blinf because there was a high percentage of single-issue voters out there who voted for Bush because of his views on gay-marriage or abortion. They voted not along party lines, but religious ones. They didn't care that he was bankrupting this country and endangering us globally.

You see how easily the line blurs?

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

quote from ratty jen ;

Okay, motm, you're right, the puritans would've executed him--but, that doesn't automatically make one side right and one side wrong.no it doesnt , but still there is a right and a wrong . If you look at objective history, the "witches" who were condemned to death during the Salem Witch trials were later found to be psychotic, i never knew that , it must have been hard to figure that out ... or...something, due to fermented/poisonous grain (vomitoxin) that was consumed in everyday foodstuffs. Let's bear in mind food preservation wasn't all that great back then.

So, you can hardly site the Salem Witch trials as an example of "Good Christian" values.[i did not pic the analogy , MC did ] Increase and Cotton Mather were just as nuts as the rest of them, show me proof that they weren't. I am not being difficult, and I am sure as hell not saying this guy (the vampire candidate) isn't a little off, but to use that example is not fair...yes it is , i can use what others give me in these friendly debates .

You'll have to excuse me, there are some green potatoes in my pantry that are calling my name. (Get it, green potatoes? no ? i dont get it ? maybe you should get one of these http://www.spudtech.com/content.asp?id=14 green potatoes should work as well as other colors i guess. one of the customers brought one to the shop last week , they work well .

It's another example of toxic food...'member the potato famine in Ireland???)they had no potates to eat , so they left the area looking to survive ? I'm just having some fun. Sorry to get into the middle of this heated topic.it is not a heated discussion ? I just think that there are two sides to every story. but in the best case scenario only one can be correct , although it is also possible both are incorrect .

RattyJenn · Senior Member

Mike,

The "green potato" reference I made was based on a theory about schizophrenia that I heard a few years ago, that there is a toxic substance in potatoes that have become green, (usually due to exposure to excessive sunlight) Solanine, which is an Alfatoxin, and when consumed, causes hallucinations, tremors, psychosis, convulsions, etc. My point was that all of the symptoms of the accused "witches" of the Salem era were quite possibly a very bad side effect of consuming toxic "greened" nightshade vegetables. The nightshade veggies include tomato, eggplant, certain mushrooms, and potatoes. There is also a theory that there was a high rate of mental illness at the mid-nineteenth century in Ireland/UK due to the inevitable ingestion of these green potatoes. Obviously, if you had nothing else to eat, you would certainly not pass up a green potato. Solanine is produced by the plant to fend off parasitic attacks, ie, sow-bugs, potato bugs, animals, etc. It makes the potato bitter, but if it was the 1840's and you were, in effect starving to death, obviously, you just wouldn't care if it was awful tasting.
So, that is what I was talking about. I wish I could find a good website that talked about the Witch Trials, Solanine, psychosis, etc, but I can't and plus I have no cut and paste abilities. I am a computer dummy!

The bottom line is, Scott is right: It is a character issue. Obviously the Vampire candidate ain't quite right...and I guess it doesn't really matter anyways, because none of us live in Minnesota! (As far as I know!)

Sorry to get so long winded and weird.

RattyJenn · Senior Member

Okay, I found a pretty good one: en.wikepedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials.38k

-- Edited by RattyJenn at 15:10, 2006-01-25

Mindcrime · Guru

mike of the mountain wrote:

quote from ratty jen; ...So, you can hardly site the Salem Witch trials as an example of "Good Christian" values. i did not pic the analogy , MC did

Where did I equate Christian values with Witch Trials? A good Christian would never condone burning people at the stake, boiling people in oil, dunking, hanging, disembowlment, public ridicule, banishment, excommunication, indulgences, false confessions, slavery, murder and rape. Just because nearly every Pope, Cardinal & Bishop in history has condoned those things...

RattyJenn · Senior Member

MC,

You forgot being "pressed" to death...like literally (unfortunately) put between two boards and pressed to death.

Them there are some good christian values? Now ain't they?

Mindcrime · Guru

You'd think I would've remembered that one, having played Giles Corey in 11th grade...

mike of the mountain · Senior Member

Mindcrime wrote:

mike of the mountain wrote: quote from ratty jen;  ...So, you can hardly site the Salem Witch trials as an example of "Good Christian" values. i did not pic the analogy , MC did

Where did I equate Christian values with Witch Trials? you used Puritans as an example , i said the Puritans would have executed pudding head and .....RJ brought up the witch thing ....

A good Christian would never condone burning people at the stake, boiling people in oil, dunking, hanging, disembowlment, public ridicule, banishment, excommunication, indulgences, false confessions, slavery, murder and rape. Just because nearly every Pope, Cardinal & Bishop in history has condoned those things...   ok , but before , when the catholic church was still the roman empire , remember that the romans used the christians in place of purina lion chow ? and scroll through history & look at all the various groups that have butchered people -    all those bad guys were bad guys despite what name they assigned to themselves .

"good Christians" dont do that . bad guys do that .

nuclearlou · Senior Member

A. "i said the Puritans would have executed pudding head" See A.

Puritans weren't Christian? WHA? Spin? Humor?

Religion > Presbyterian Books at Biblio
Biography, New England Puritans, Evangelical, Christian Life, holiness, Pastors.
... Concordances, New-england, Puritans, Bible, Evangelical, Christian, ...
www.biblio.com/catalogs/sub/354/Presbyterian.html - 63k - Jan 26, 2006

A. "good Christians" dont do that . bad guys do that . See A.

"ok , but " Only partial admission? Continue debate logic thread? Or, Return to A._?

"all those bad guys were bad guys despite what name they assigned to themselves ."

------------------------------------------

That happens from Lewiston to the Connecticut border, from sea to shining sea, no matter what they call themselves.

Bad Guys do things like that.

-- Edited by nuclearlou at 08:01, 2006-01-28

Mindcrime · Guru

So at what point in history did Christians 'become good?' Sure they stopped sacrificing people 1700 years ago, they haven't crusaded against the holy land in 500 or so, they haven't held public hangings in a hundred. It was just last year that Christian groups physically assaulted abortion patients. How much longer until Christians become good?

Getting back to my original point, let's say the candidate's religion actually DOES matter. How are Satanists any different from Christians? Historically, both would be guilty of atrocities like murder and persecution. But apart from semantics, how would a Christian candidate be any better than a Satanic one?

nuclearlou · Senior Member

MC: I'm only providing some citations for consideration. Hope ya don't mind.

From above post Church and State-
"show to me where it says that ? pick one , either will do . "

As provided by a Christian Web site

http://www.spiritual-answers.com/Laws/church_and_state.htm
What law actually dictates the separation of Church and State?

The fact is the government has never passed a law implementing a "separation of church and state." The concept is derived from the First Amendment of the The Constitution of the United States of America, which reads as follows:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The First Amendment is in fact a law. What you've just read is the written law. Yet the observance of this law, is in the hands of people. And what is written, is less relevant than what the people enforcing it claim that it means. Bottom line, the First Amendment is a critical component of our laws and crucial for maintaining the idea of other rights. All of our other rights flow from it and these rights provide the freedoms we cherish.The principle of firsts would state that items are listed in order of importance, with the first items mentioned to be considered the most important. If we look at the Ten Commandments, we'll see that ...

INTERJECTION:
Still believe that there is no law... the following shows that this was on the mind of declorator Thomas Jefferson (Father-Constitution) and important enough for him to have contemplated his answer back to the Connecticut Baptist Associates for at least three months. This period of time would be thought substantial consideration for any person on most subjects.

INTERJECTION:
"Will you marry me?" "I need three months to think on it."

As provided for in the US Constitution (as outlined.)

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter
Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. A copy of the Danbury letter is available here. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature - as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only that on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

The letter was the subject of intense scrutiny by Jefferson, and he consulted a couple of New England politicians to assure that his words would not offend while still conveying his message: it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion.

Note: The bracketed section in the second paragraph had been blocked off for deletion, though it was not actually deleted in his draft of the letter. It is included here for completeness. Reflecting upon Jefferson's knowledge that his letter was far from a mere personal correspondence, he deleted the block, he says in the margin, to avoid offending members of his party in the eastern states.

This is a transcript of the letter as stored online at the Library of Congress, and reflects Jefferson's spelling and punctuation.

INTERJECTION:
Perhaps "GAY" viewpoint -

"Will you marry me?" "I need three months to think on it." Diff?

-- Edited by nuclearlou at 09:33, 2006-01-28